findabetterole Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Hello Chaps, Can anyone help please? I'm after a coloured pic of the pre-WW1 sleave badge.. crossed rifles.. for the old style No1 Dress red Infantry Jacket. A close-up of the item, and (in order for me to get an idea of its size) one of it being worn contempary during the period would be of great help. Thank you in advance. Seph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 I will fix you up if nobody beats me to it. A few bits of nomenclature for you, so we speak the same language. The 'jacket' colour was officially 'scarlet', and came in several qualities [ranked] and in several cuts and trims. The best was called the 'tunic', with 7 buttons, and it was ordered for wear for formal parades, court martials, and could be worn for marching out of barracks. It was tailored to fit tightly, lined and carried the maximum adornment such as facing colour cuffs, collar and piped/ braided front and back seams and cuffs. The next down in the pecking ordered was the 'frock', usually 5 button [sometimes 7], cut loosely, and light on adornment. It was day-to day dress in winter in and around barracks, sometimes on route-marches [although service dress largely superceded these uses in 1902]. The crossed rifles badge was issued for both garments, and, according to clothing regulations and priced Vocabs after 1902, was to be 'gold embroidered' on blue, scarlet or green. [The Foot Guards [and, I suspect, many other 'Royal' regiments used gold on blue, but for the 'non-Royal', scarlet would have been a better choice, but there were exceptions. I have seen both in museums .... period photos are not reliable as evidence of course. The earlier issued were white worsted on the above three colours. First illustration is pre-1900, showing white worsted and 'muskets' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 next, a not very good example of gold on scarlet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 finally, gold on blue, this one very modern for 'No. 1 Dress' I will look for an 'in wear' illustration if someone does not beat me to the punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 will post commentary if it uploads. Yes! Northumberland Fusilier drummer, courtesy Graham Stewart. post 1902, India, probably post-1906 ... the head-dress tells us that. Jacket is Indian pattern frock, with the added adornment a. that frocks had in India [it was Indian Sunday best] and b. that drummers had. Note regimental pattern lace shapes. Wears two good-conduct badges and the crossed rifles, probably the gold-on-scarlet variety, as NF were not a Royal regiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philsr Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Gents, The crossed rifles are still used by the cadet forces for marksmanship qualifications. In the Air Training Corps it's for the Regional Marksmaship. Regards Philsr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Lovely original examples there Dave. Wasn't the gold on blue also worn on "blue" patrols too for those qualified? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Taken from the Gentlemans Military Interest Club, this pair of crossed rifles came with a set of Boer War medals to the Cheshire Regiment. It not being a "Royal", I take it these are off the "blue" patrols. The pattern too is different to those illustrated in Dave's earlier post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Lovely original examples there Dave. Wasn't the gold on blue also worn on "blue" patrols too for those qualified? Yes, and still are to this day .... size might be smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 I might add that the NF drummer also wears the worsted 'drum' appointment badge, which was not strictly necessary as his 'crown and inch' lace tells anyone who matters what he is. His 'wings' are very unusual, very very unusual! In this respect, soldiers are a bit like Boy Scouts, the more badges the merrier. Unless, of course, the wearer happens to be American, when suddenly it is a bit infra dig! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 the more badges the merrier. Unless, of course, the wearer happens to be American Not strictly On-Topic, but, since you mention it I watched General Petraeus on the news last night, and was struck by what little uniform was showing 'thru' under all those ribbons, badges etc, etc, etc. (or have I missed some irony somewhere?) regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikB Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 Gents, The crossed rifles are still used by the cadet forces for marksmanship qualifications. In the Air Training Corps it's for the Regional Marksmaship. Regards Philsr When I was a cadet in the CCF in the 1960s, plain crossed rifles meant Rifleman, 2nd Class. Rifleman, 1st Class was identified with a star above the centre, and Marksman with a crown. Smallbore grade badge backgrounds were khaki, and fullbore red - I can't remember the rifle colours with any certainty. Regards, MikB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 2 July , 2009 Share Posted 2 July , 2009 I might add that the NF drummer also wears the worsted 'drum' appointment badge, which was not strictly necessary as his 'crown and inch' lace tells anyone who matters what he is. His 'wings' are very unusual, very very unusual! In this respect, soldiers are a bit like Boy Scouts, the more badges the merrier. Unless, of course, the wearer happens to be American, when suddenly it is a bit infra dig! Alas though in the case of this drummer, it's not "crown and inch" piping a closer examination seems to reveal it's scarlet piping woven within the white piping. It's the most unusual piping I've ever seen worn, but if my memory serves me well this photo was taken in India and certainly spruced up their uniforms. Being in my current location I have no access to my St.Georges Gazettes to confirm the date it was taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 3 July , 2009 Share Posted 3 July , 2009 Whoops! Memo to Grumpy: never assume ........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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