Please help clarify regiment

[Maryde]

Hi, I have just come across my relatives short service sign on form and it says 3rd Royal Irish Rifles and then East Lancs and I am confused on where to look for further information. I also have his medal record and it says East Lancs on it and it looks as if he was a prisoner of war until 1920. He was Andrew McLoughlin from Belfast and his service number was 49295, Can anyone point me in the right direction. Many thanks, Mary

[sw63]

Hi, I have just come across my relatives short service sign on form and it says 3rd Royal Irish Rifles and then East Lancs and I am confused on where to look for further information. I also have his medal record and it says East Lancs on it and it looks as if he was a prisoner of war until 1920. He was Andrew McLoughlin from Belfast and his service number was 49295, Can anyone point me in the right direction. Many thanks, Mary

Hi Mary,

Do you mean 49275 Pte A McLoughlin E Lanc Regt?

BWM & VM forfeited under art. 1236 B.P.W. as amended by AO 298/1920.

Not a POW I think. They were repatriated very quickly. He was in 25th Brigade 8th Division in September 1918.

Not much to go on I'm afraid - nothing in his service papers. You could try these museums:

Royal Ulster Rifles Museum

(83rd 86th, R. Irish Rifles),

5 Waring Street,

Belfast,

BT1 2EW

Tel: 028 9023 2086

Email: rurmuseum@yahoo.co.uk

Web: http://435728.com/

Queen's Lancashire Regiment Museum

Fulwood Barracks,

Watling Street Road,

Preston,

PR2 8AA

Tel: 01772 260362

Fax: 01772 260583

Email: qlrmuseum@btconnect.com

Web: www.qlrmuseum.co.uk

Simon

[MBrockway]

Mary,

I'm afraid it looks more likely that McLoughlin was a prisoner than a PoW.

See this Topic:

Forfeit, abbreviations

I'm still investigating exactly what "Art. 1236 B.P.W. as amended by AO 298/1920" implies, but it does rather look like a Court Martial was involved.

Does one of the other Pals have access to the text of Army Order 298 of 1920?

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mary,

The following by Mike D on the British Medals Forum is very helpful (I hope he will not mind us quoting him here - many thanks) ...

Article 1236 of the 1914 Pay Warrant covers forfeiture of medals on conviction for:

- Desertion

- Fraudulent enlistment

- Any offence under Sections 17 or 18 of the Army Act

Or if discharged:

- with ignomony

- expressly on account of misconduct

- on conviction by the Civil Power

- on being sentenced to penal servitude

- on giving a false answer on attestation

Or if found guilty of by a civil court of an offence which would be recognised under Sections 17 or 18 of the Army Act;

Or if sentenced by a civil court to imprisonment of more than six months.

As yet I have not managed to find the amendments made to the Pay Warrant (more properly the Royal Warrant for Pay and Promotion, 1914) by Army Order 298, but I think the above gives an idea of the range of possibilities.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Mary,

Here's the actual MIC ...

NB the Service Number you used in your original post was 49295 not 49275 as in this MIC, so it is possible we may have the wrong man.

That said I cannot find any MICs for a McLoughlin with Number 49295 either via the NA search engine or Ancestry. I'm guessing Simon had the same results.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

Hi, I have just come across my relatives short service sign on form and it says 3rd Royal Irish Rifles and then East Lancs

Mary,

A look at this would be very helpful to us, but you won't be able to post a picture or get the Personal Message facilities activated until you've made a few more posts yourself.

How did you acquire your Short Service form?

I've found a couple of sets of Service Records for Andrew McLoughlins. One of which mentions he had earlier service but had been discharged after being bought out by his parents - presumably that Andrew McLoughlin did not disclose something material at his Attestation. It's a bit of a long shot, but that might have constituted fraudulent enlistment or giving a false answer on attestation, and might possibly explain forfeiture of the medals.

Something more serious remains the more likely option though I'm afraid.

How "solid" is your information about his Service Number and regiments?

Cheers,

Mark

[Maryde]

Hi, Sorry I haven't replied earlier I have been away. Many thanks for your help and I did actually mistype the service number, the medal card you showed is the one belowing to my relative (49275), I obtained both it and the short service record from the ancestry.co.uk site. I am intrigued to find out what could have gone on as there has never been any mention of a court martial and i know he also served in WW2.

[sw63]

Mary,

Assuming you haven't already done so, it may well be worth getting his WWII service records from the MOD.

Take a look at this site for details of how to apply:

http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_record...ce_records.html

Simon

[Maryde]

Thanks Simon, I will look into that.

[Maryde]

Hi, Just a thought would lying about his age be the cause of the medal forfeit? I noticed on the short service record that his age was given as 19 yrs 1month, the form was signed on the 19th June 1916 but his birthday was 24 Sept 1898, which makes him 17 when he enrolled. I hate to think he did something really bad!