Lovely war incident

[Desmond7]

Sorry for harping on about 36th Div. - anyway now into my 'main attack' piece and I have written this - Am I right or wrong im my assumption? I know this section of the film was meant to portray the first day on the somme.

Quote - Sadly, Stuff Redoubt was to prove a ‘bridge too far’ for the tiring Ulstermen. As they swept forwards, men were caught up in a whirlwind bombardment which shattered the attack and inflicted dozens more casualties.

For years, historians of the battle assumed that the speed of the 36th Division’s attack had carried the men right into the middle of a British artillery barrage.

The incident was even depicted as a scene in the famous sixties’ musical ‘Oh!What a lovely war’ ... in the movie, a group of Irish soldiers led by a grizzled sergeant are forced to take cover as shells blast around them.

"Those are our guns!" complains one soldier.

"Well get back and tell them they’re shooting at us!" orders the weary sergeant.

As the’runner’ sets off, the sergeant mutters: "And if the Germans shoot him .. I’ll kill him!"

However, it now seems that the British gunners were blamed wrongly for this early case of ‘friendly fire’. An American researcher with a keen interest in the German soldiers defending this section of the line has brought my attention to recently discovered testimony which sheds new light on the famous incident.

-End quote

Anybody know for definite if this was the incident in the film?

[Johnny S]

in the movie, a group of Irish soldiers led by a grizzled sergeant are forced to take cover as shells blast around them.

"Those are our guns!" complains one soldier.

"Well get back and tell them they’re shooting at us!" orders the weary sergeant.

As the’runner’ sets off, the sergeant mutters: "And if the Germans shoot him .. I’ll kill him!"

However, it now seems that the British gunners were blamed wrongly for this early case of ‘friendly fire’. An American researcher with a keen interest in the German soldiers defending this section of the line has brought my attention to recently discovered testimony which sheds new light on the famous incident.

-End quote

Anybody know for definite if this was the incident in the film?

Isn't it just one Irish soldier (the Serjeant) ? Personally I think that it is just a "scene" in the musical rather than based on actual events. "Blue on Blue" (as we called them later) occurances were probably more common than is realised as they tended to be a little hushed up in the press and swept under the carpet (anybody know anything about the Royal Ulster Rifles unit getting decimated in Korea by a US airstrike? Neither would I if my dad hadn't seen it with his own eyes! )

John

[Desmond7]

Hi Johnny - thanks for your views. I also have an interest in the RUR. I did hear something about that incident in Korea. The most famous one in that war that I can think of was an airstrike on Argyle and Sutherland Highlanders. I think Major Kenny Muir received a VC for holding an important hill position despite being napalmed by USAF.

Any other views on Oh What a Lovely War incident folks - or does the paragraph have to go?

The reason I thought about using it in the piece was my Dad got upset when it was shown on TV years ago when he was still alive. He reckoned it was an insult and made fun of the troops involved. He was especially p...ed off by the stage Oirish accents.

[Stuart Basson]

Interesting. Coming at it from the theatrical angle (that's my profession) I can think of no reason why the Theatre Workshop, on whose original piece the film was based, would have given their "soldiers" an Irish accent unless research had shown that there was a particular incident of this nature with Irish soldiers involved.

From what I understand of the way the Theatre Workshop worked the piece would not have been written by one individual so much as devised by the company under the direction of Joan Littlewood, and the actors would have carried out much of the research themselves. I expect they would have interviewed former servicemen around the locality of the company's base and may perhaps (big supposition on my part) have got the story from that, unless the story was generally known, or featured in existing written histories.

Having said all that there would also be a chance that, in order to enhance the "anti-war" message of the piece, a more contemporaneous (?) story such as the Korean one might have been adapted and inserted, but overall I'd be surprised if that were the case here. All of which helps not one bit, I suppose! There must be members of the original theatre company about who could answer the question: the trade newspaper, The Stage, has an online presence with a variety of message boards here:

http://www.thestage.co.uk/connect/talk/index.shtml

and it may well be worth posting a message on one of those.

Stu

[Guest Desmond6]

Stuart and Johnny - thanks very much for replies.

What started as a hunch has now developed into a search - I know it's 'only' a movie but it does seem to be shown on TV on a regular basis and I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with the scene.

If anybody has a copy on DVD/video - if such a thing exists - could they review the section and tell me if they think 1. Chronologically, is the scene tied to the 1st July Somme?; 2, Did all the actors in the scene come across as Irish?; 3, Was the 'Ulster Division ran into their own bombardment' theory accepted history at that time?

Help I have received from Ralph Whitehead - applause - is also appreciated on this bombardment issue. Also cheers to Mark in Belfast who also helped me with an e-mail on this artillery issue some time ago.

Des

[mcderms]

Ralph Whitehead has the info on this one... It wasn't friendly fire but a German battery which shelled the Ulstermen. The Germans spotted the advance and plastered the area with shrapnel. I will try and dig out R's email or I am sure he'll reply himself if he sees the post.

[Desmond7]

Thanks McD for the offer, but take it easy, I've already been in touch with Ralph on this one and - as you say - he most definitely has the German side well researched.

Cheers Des