Burying the dead

[Hillyer]

I have some questions, please, about the procedures when a person was killed on the Western Front.

What was the "paperwork" for those who had no known grave - either because they had been seen to be blown to smithereens, or died unseen and just disappeared in the mud? When someone died from their wounds was the process different?

Who was the death registered with, and who issued the death certificate - was there always one?

At what point were the next of kin notified of the site of burial, if there was one? How were they told that there was no known grave? Who owns the individual graves of the dead and were/are relatives allowed to personalise them?

Finally, were any remains ever repatriated for burial back home - of any rank?

Thank you for answers to what may well seem silly questions.

Hillyer

[grantowi]

Hi Hillyer,

I think that those who died and their bodies recovered (plus those who died of wounds) were where possable placed into "temporary" graves and their details and grave location passed on to the grave registration unit, later to be re-inturned into proper cemeterys.

I belive the term "missing in action, believed killed" was the official line, sometimes a friend or an officer whould write to the parents informing them of their Sons death, maybe including the how / where and the where buried information

Most of the individual graves are tended by the CWGC ( http://www.cwgc.org ) with a "standard" headstone with the regiment and service number on, I think there was an option for the family to add a few lines of their own, but unsure how this was achived.

Some one will come along and gives some fuller answers (and correct any mistakes that I have made) when the've had their brekkie

Grant

Edit - have a look at "the lond long trail" - top left hand of page or http://www.1914-1918.net/died.htm

[Hillyer]

That's great, Grant, thanks for your reply - you're a night owl too, then!

I certainly didn't know about the "temporary" graves - I suppose it's logical, but I just never thought of it. I was going to say it sounds horrific to dig someone up again but there was so much horror all around I don't suppose it seemed unnatural, and I imagine cemeteries large enough to cope with the sheer numbers of the dead couldn't have been provided without a considerable time lapse.

So deaths were processed by the grave registration unit? I suppose all the records were then put together and maintained by the Ministry of Defence, and some records must have been kept by corps/regiments as well. The dead must have been very clearly dead but I wonder if it was still necessary for a doctor to make out an individual death certificate as in civilian life? If bodies weren't found (and I did read on here that great efforts were made to locate the missing) I wonder if it made a difference to families receiving any benefits that might have been payable?

A thought just occurs - if there was (as I believe I may have read) reciprocal burying of the dead with the Germans on occasion, was this done with any intention of identifying the buried afterwards?

The chilling official line you mention is familiar, but it sounds as if it was quite commonplace for loved ones to be notified in an informal way, perhaps by a friend (didn't know that) and that possibly the extent of the information given about the circumstances of the death and the place of burial, varied.

I presume (maybe wrongly) that for various reasons more info was available about officers than other ranks. I was asking about whether the dead were ever repatriated for burial (not casualties who were sent home and died subsequently of wounds) and I am again presuming this was far more likely if it did occur at all, to be for officers.

I'd be interested to know whether the offer for families to personalise the standard headstone was a real possibility and whether it was taken up much, or if at all. Presumably the CWGC have a fairly rigid set of rules which enable it to maintain the vast, endless cemeteries so immaculately - such chaos in battle, and such uniformity in death. Incidentally, I imagine that families do not own individual graves and in that case I wonder whether the cost of headstones - and in fact dealing with the dead - was borne totally by the government?

Thanks again,

Hillyer

Edit: Found it, thanks. Should have looked there first, it answered most of my questions. Fascinating but really brings it home to you, doesn't it?

[jhill]

As an example of some of the initial paperwork we can look at this bit of a burial return included with the War Diary of the 3rd Canadian Divisional Artillery for the period of the Amiens Operation of August 1918. Note that on this snippet some of the dead were buried at Berncourt-en-Santerre Cemetery (I think it says!) and others at White House Cemetery. It was the custom to use existing cemeteries where possible. From the Commonwealth Graves site we see that those buried at the latter cemetery remain there whereas those buried in the former were moved after the War to a New Cemetery. As in all these post war moves some may not have been identifiable and so may not have a known grave (but we know they are there!).

I think this is more or less correct but we have more knowledgeable people on this forum.

[Captain Dave]

My understanding of the procedures for a soldier who was classed as 'missing, believed killed' (ie, no body or grave obviously) was that after the action (be it an attack for example) a nominal role was passed back to HQ, soldiers missing from the role were classed obviously as missing. When time allowed a court of inquiry would be held, witnesses called forward etc. This explains the time discrepancy between a person posted as missing, then confirmed as killed. Obviously the COE were at times hurried affairs if there were a large number of dead to contend with.

[pmaasz]

Good question and an interesting thread. Edit: thanks for the link to www.1914-1918.net/died.htm .

But oh no! Not another mis-spelling of Gillemont Farm as Guillemont! (In the text relating to the first photo.)

[Hillyer]

Grant, jhill, Captain Dave and pmsaaz!

Thanks to everyone for their help. I love the way you guys put modestly that a more knowledgable somebody will be along shortly - from what I've seen everybody on here's pretty knowledgeable - I've learned something from every post, and the personal message I got . Cheers to you all.

Hazel

(Hillyer was grandad)

[Greyhound]

You might like to seek out a copy of The Unending Vigil by Philip Longworth, the story of the CWGC. Lots of information about how the cemeteries and memorials were planned, will answer some of your questions.

[Hillyer]

Thanks, Greyhound, will do.

Actually they will doubtless answer one question I haven't been able to discover elsewhere - whether any families actually took up the option I understand was available to personalise the headstone in some way.

There is also a second question the Long, Long Trail didn't include - unless I missed it or the answer's so obvious - and that is were body bags or some kind of shrouds used for burial or were the men put straight into the ground? It may be coffins were used but I am assuming the logistics made this impossible at least for most of the war dead.

Hazel

[PGL]

The chilling official line you mention is familiar, but it sounds as if it was quite commonplace for loved ones to be notified in an informal way, perhaps by a friend (didn't know that) and that possibly the extent of the information given about the circumstances of the death and the place of burial, varied.

I presume (maybe wrongly) that for various reasons more info was available about officers than other ranks. I was asking about whether the dead were ever repatriated for burial (not casualties who were sent home and died subsequently of wounds) and I am again presuming this was far more likely if it did occur at all, to be for officers.

At some stage (or perhaps concurrently) the phrase "Missing, Presumed Dead" was used. That was the official line used in a letter my family received from the Records Office, Island Bridge, Dublin in February 1916 concerning a Great Uncle.

Concerning repatriation, when Captain Thomas McAlindon MC passed away in a hospital in England in September 1918, his mother made arrangements to have his remains brought back home to County Armagh for burial. She did so entirely at her own expense and was never refunded or offered any financial assistance for this. I should mention that he died from an illness contracted in France whilst on active service.

Captain McAlindon does however have a headstone provided by the CWGC.

Although that is just one example, I would image that the cost and logistical difficulties would be prohibitive for most families.

[ian turner]

There is also a second question the Long, Long Trail didn't include - unless I missed it or the answer's so obvious - and that is were body bags or some kind of shrouds used for burial or were the men put straight into the ground? It may be coffins were used but I am assuming the logistics made this impossible at least for most of the war dead.

Hazel

Hazel,

More than likely straight in the ground, at best wrapped in a blanket. Body bags did not exist then. This is depending on the 'completeness' of the body. If just 'parts' then perhaps shovelled into a sandbag first, before interment.

[Hillyer]

PGL: Thanks for your reply about Captain McAlindon who I see had the Military Cross. Yes, your last sentence is right - cost alone would be prohibitive and presumably travel arrangements for returning remains home must have been extremely scarce getting on for a century ago. That's why I presumed repatriation from France, let alone other theatres across the world would - had they occurred - have been for officers only. As a mother one would want to move heaven and earth to get a loved one back, but even today I imagine expense is a restricting factor. Good for the Captain's mother! Sadly I'm not surprised no government finance was given - though post-war from everything I've read the CWGC as they are now did and continue to do a very good job on our behalf. Out of a recent compilation of war dead from Windsor's memorials/graves (and it is still not definitive) only half a dozen or so had home burials - and these were men who died later (sometimes a lot later) from war wounds for one reason or another.

ian turner: And thanks to you - I had imagined they at least had canvas bags of some sort ready. Of course what you say makes sense, although it is hard not to be appalled that a man who's just died fighting on our behalf should not be given more respect than being shovelled into a spare sandbag - or worse still be buried then churned up again by later advances and lost perhaps forever in the mud. The more I learn, the sadder it all is.

Hazel

[ian turner]

ian turner: And thanks to you - I had imagined they at least had canvas bags of some sort ready. Of course what you say makes sense, although it is hard not to be appalled that a man who's just died fighting on our behalf should not be given more respect than being shovelled into a spare sandbag - or worse still be buried then churned up again by later advances and lost perhaps forever in the mud. The more I learn, the sadder it all is.

Hazel

Hazel,

It is indeed an emotive subject. But you need to fully understand the circumstances in which the figthing took place. The front lines were in zones subject to bombardment and any imprudent, even very brief, exposure to enemy fire would likely result in death. Imagine you are in a front line trench. Your pal is killed next to you, and you would like to bury him with full military honours and with a padre present.

How to do that? Men were struggling and daily, if not hourly, getting killed just to supply the fighting machine with ammunition and stores and rations enough to keep it going. The whole area was a quagmire of churned mud and shell holes. The luxury of either removing the body to a safe area (at the risk of loosing more lives in the process) or transporting a nice new casket for the deceased an impossible luxury (not to mention the cost...).

The pragmatic course was to either cover the body of your pal, or heave the body over the parados (rear part of the trench)

and with luck maybe bury him best as can after dark. Thereafter the burial would be subject to further bombardment and the grave completely obliterated, or at best just the original marker destroyed and lost. No wonder so many 'missing'.

And, if the casualty was litteraly blown to pieces, what to do with the remains? The sandbag option again being the most prudent.

Not a pleasant subject, but frankly it goes to the heart of the tragedy that was the Great War, especially on the Western Front.

[Greyhound]

Actually they will doubtless answer one question I haven't been able to discover elsewhere - whether any families actually took up the option I understand was available to personalise the headstone in some way.

Yes, many headstones carry personal inscriptions - see Favourite Gravestone Inscription to read a selection.

There was a charge initially, but it was later decided that payment should be voluntary, and people who hadn't paid up weren't chased for the money. Sadly this would still have put some families off requesting an inscription, especially in the early days.

[jhill]

... snip ...

There is also a second question the Long, Long Trail didn't include - unless I missed it or the answer's so obvious - and that is were body bags or some kind of shrouds used for burial or were the men put straight into the ground? It may be coffins were used but I am assuming the logistics made this impossible at least for most of the war dead.

Hazel

The official procedures for the burial of the dead evolved during the course of the war. Eventually they became quite formal. As an example, take at look at the document 'Burial of the Dead - Revised Instructions' issued by Canadian Corps on 1st January 1918. There is a ratty copy here , here , and here . Notice that there were some differences depending on whether or not an advance was in progress. For example, it is stated that "Body will be wrapped in green canvas, which is issued for the purpose..." , but during an advance this might not be possible. I recollect from some threads a long time ago that this green canvas was in the form of long strips.

I hope this is useful information (although the subject is a bit ghoulish perhaps!).

[Greyhound]

I was asking about whether the dead were ever repatriated for burial (not casualties who were sent home and died subsequently of wounds) and I am again presuming this was far more likely if it did occur at all, to be for officers.

Repatriation from theatres of war was forbidden in 1915 (don't know the exact date in 1915). Up till then there had been a few repatriations (all of officers, I believe, which can be put down to finances and connections). I think forum member Terry Denham has a list of these - he is the forum guru on all matters CWGC, and most of what I know has been learned from Terry's posts.

However, families of those who died in the UK could choose to have them buried near where they died, or have the body brought home for burial at their own expense. This did not count as "repatriation" even if they were transported to another country.

[grantowi]

Hazel,

If you visit the CWGC site - http://www.cwgc.org - and click on the "who we are" and "What we do" buttons it might give you a better insight into the function of the CWGC.

Also, If you read some of the information on the CWGC cemeterys there are several which state that the cemetry was enlarged in 19xx and the bodies from smaller cemetrys were re-inturned at that time. Have a look at Wancourt as an example - http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_detail...3300&mode=1 - at the armistice it contained 410 graves, it now contains 1,936.

Regarding the burying of enemy soldiers, some were buried by British soldiers - mainly to help prevent spread of infections and such like - But Im not sure how the graves were marked or how the information was passed to the other side.

Grant

[Hillyer]

ian:

Faced with the reality as you describe it, it's hard to know what to say, how to respond. How did the men get through that without going mad? I suppose because there was no alternative. Yes, the more I learn the more it makes me sad, but as I see it part my/our responsibility to those men is to remember them by not flinching from even the worse accounts of the horrors that were daily life to them. It's the least I can do.

[ian turner]

ian:

Faced with the reality as you describe it, it's hard to know what to say, how to respond. How did the men get through that without going mad? I suppose because there was no alternative. Yes, the more I learn the more it makes me sad, but as I see it part my/our responsibility to those men is to remember them by not flinching from even the worse accounts of the horrors that were daily life to them. It's the least I can do.

Hazel,

There is nothing you/I can say and you are absolutely right about remembering them - it is the best we can do. My grandfather had nightmares about the war into his 60's. Remember, there was no counciling, just the going back to the civilian world and getting on with life as best they could. It is indeed amazing how so many of them managed to resume 'normal' lives after witnessing such horror.

[Hillyer]

Greyhound: (from West Berks I see, me too)

Well, what a thread. Some of them just come off the page and knock you sideways, don't they? Thanks for the link - it's so worth reading. I'm going to go back and record some of the special ones - but not till the sniffles have stopped...

Odd, when you read of all the hideous, graphic horrors of the battlefield that it's just a few words on a headstone that perhaps best tell the reality of the Great War.

Hazel

(Thanks for your reply about repatriation. Heartbreaking for the families, but I suppose it was banned because it just wasn't logistically feasible. I came across Terry Denham on the personal inscriptions thread. Certainly knows his stuff, but then everybody is very helpful on here and contributes something. When you said casualties who died in the UK could be brought home for burial at the family's expense (even abroad) or buried where they died, did you mean if they were in hospitals for the wounded around the country? I was about to ask the who and why about casualty evacuation but I could leave you in peace and go search the CWGC site for myself!)

Hazel

[Hillyer]

jhill:

Even if I remind myself not to judge by modern standards, I can't help thinking that four years of war is a long time for a government to take to evolve an efficient organisation for burying their dead, given the enormous number of casualties there were. Is this unfair, given these particular theatres of war conditions? (Incidentally, how organised was the German system, I wonder, because I'm assuming they weren't using French cemeteries or the land given for large graveyards to bury their men? Perhaps they were in land they held?)

As you say, burials varied if they were subject to advance or bombardment, but I was dismayed, if I read it right, that in those conditions a man may well have been buried in his underclothes or less as kit was removed and left with equipment alongside the grave for salvage. I do understand the practicalities, particularly about equipment but uniforms must by then have been pretty worn - and when a man's just given his life, it seems a lack of respect for him to take his clothes too.

Yes, I found it useful - and interesting - thanks! And not really ghoulish - although the Long, Long Trail article about post-war searching for bodies that involved rats was - but if they could live it, I can read it...

[Hillyer]

Grant:

I'm about to head off for the CWGC site with my list of questions - thank you for the link, particularly to the ones like Wancourt as you say, that took remains from elsewhere and grew nearly five-fold. I've only ever visited one large cemetery in Northern France - and it was just breathtakingly vast, it just stretched and stretched ... and every one someone's son...

Finding out about the burying of enemy soldiers - by either side - would be fascinating. (No sooner do I find an answer to one question than another one springs up!) Indeed, I was wondering how the Germans managed with their dead because presumably they didn't have access to the land the French gave us in 1915 for bigger cemeteries, although they obviously had enormous losses too? I am beginning to understand what it is that makes some people devote so much of their time on and off here, finding answers to questions about the Great War. Thanks for your help.

Hazel

[Hillyer]

ian:

Sorry, didn't mean this to be a personal swap, but what you said reminded me of my grandad, who I spent a lot of time with as a child; a large, gentle man, worked with horses which he loved, and joined the Horse Guards (we lived in Windsor) when war broke out. When things escalated got moved to the RGA which he must have hated. Shrapnel leg wound disabled him, caused continual pain and changed his life and career for ever. Didn't talk about the war. Died early. Always lovely with me, although even as a child I could see his unhappiness sometimes - but looking back I now know that under that getting on with life exterior "normal" life was never resumed for him - and I imagine for many, many others.

Hazel

[themonsstar]

I think it's very easy with hindsight, to be judgemental of the conditions of a battlefield, from at least ninety years ago with our modern minds and technology.

One, because none of us fought on the battlefields.

Two, most of the evidence of the carnage of the battlefield is in black and white. we live in a colour world.

Possibly one of the hardest jobs on any battlefield is the burial or repatriation, of ones dead colleagues, I know you would be very attentive sorting out your dead colleagues remains.

However, when you are dealing with the enemy dead, you find the biggest hole and dump them in. I know this because as an infantry soldier I was attached to a Graves Registration Unit for 4 months.

Dealing with soldiers who were killed in accidents or on the battlefield, as well as dealing with the dead bodies, you also have to remember there are bombs and bullets, and explosions going on or off all around you.

It's only after you capture the enemy position and stabilise the situation that you can deal with any dead of either side.

[liverpool annie]

I would think it would be extremely demoralising themonsstar .... ! I can't imagine how the guys would be able to "switch off " !!

One of my Chaplains ( in WW1 ) in between doing burials and last rites etc - talked about listening to the soldiers who were assigned this emotional duty ...

Annie