L/S F SKINNER KIA 4 June 1915, 3rd Krithia

[brimacombe]

Now I might be just having a little 'senior moment' (can you have them aged 40?!) but I wonder if someone might have an idea about this.

Some of you may know, I am currently compiling biographies for the 36 men from Holsworthy, Devon who were lost in WWI.

Amonst them was Ldg Smn Frederick SKINNER, Howe Bat. RND who was killed in action at the Third Battle of Krithia on 4 June 1915.

It is known that he was shot in the stomach and, quite probably, suffered a quite long, lingering death in the middle of the battle field.

Now, this is the bit I hope someone may be able to help me with. It is known that he died on the battlefield and was not evacuated to an aid post. He has no known grave and is remembered of the Helles Memorial. Does he have no known grave because A) his body was never recovered (perhaps blown to pieces), or because his body, along with others recovered after the battle were burried in mass graves?

Like I said, I hope you don't think I'm having a senior moment! I'd like to think the answer would be the more 'clinical' answer of b, and IF that is the case, has anyone any book extracts etc pertaining to the burying of bodies at Gallipoli. I'm sure someone will be able to put me right.

Thanks in anticipation

Shawn

[John_Hartley]

Impossible to be certain about the reason, Shawn, unless you happen across some first hand account of his burial.

However, the fact that he is commemorated on Helles suggests his body was never recovered and identified. That may mean, his body was never recovered or it may mean that his body was buried by his comrades and the location lost or it may mean that his body was buried by the Turks. Those known (or believed) to be buried in a cemetery are normally commemorated to that effect in the cemetery.

[horatio2]

I think the answer is probably (A) but not because his body was "blown to pieces". Rather, I think his body was left in No-Man's Land for a period of well over a month between 3rd Krithia on 4 June and the Action of Achi Baba Nullah on 12/13 July, when the British front-line moved forward of the spot where he fell. I doubt that there was much left to recover even if battlefield clearance took place post-mid-July (which I doubt given the exposure to Turkish fire). His unidentified remains may have been recovered post-war.

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Yes I would agre also.

Many of the missing are buried under "Known unto God" or "A unknown soldier of the --- Regt" depending on what they found on the body.

The fiber ID disc's were very poor after a few months or years out in the weather.

S,B

[Krithia]

During the Gallipoli campaign the aluminum disk was the standard issue, but faired little better than the latter fibre disks. Also worth noting was once the body was recovered, identied and buried the single id disk was removed from the body and more often than not sent to next of kin. There after if the grave was destroyed by continued fighting in the area there was little chance of re-identifying the grave later. We evacuated the battlefield at Helles in January 1916, thus adding to the problem of grave preservation until the allies returned in 1918.

What is slightly different to graves on the Gallipoli Peninsula when compared to the Western Front is the lack of headstones with "Known unto God" etc. All unidentifed were buried within most of the traditional cemeteries in unmarked graves withno head marker, and then commemorated by name on the various memorials to the missing, the main one being the Helles Memorial (British/AUS), and of course those at Lone Pine AUS/NZ), Chunuk Bair (NZ), Hill 60 (NZ) and Twelve Tree Copse (NZ).

[Alastair]

The reality is that most were buried in initial graves at the time and probably had wooden markers. If you look at Stephen Chambers book on Gallipoli there is a good photo of Geoghegan's Bluff Cemetery which shows what that looked like. After the war, many of these temporary cemeteries were moved to new sites like Twelve Tree Copse. Unfortunately, many of the original graves markers had been removed by the locals for firewood, and unlike the Western Front, when the Graves Unit was tried to identify bodies for reburial in 1923, they were shot at so it was probably a rushed process. Many books on Gallipoli refer to eye witness accounts of soldiers being buried at the time only to be later listed on the Helles Memorial suggesting that the grave was lost, or the body could not be identified if moved. Twelve Tree Copse contains the bodies of 47 officers and men from 7th Scottish Rifles, all named and have special commemoration headstones to acknowledge that they were reburied there after the war. However, they have no actual known grave, and are probably within a mass burial on the site simply because of these dificulties.

[mikehowe]

My grandfather (Howe Bn) confirmed that Skinner was shot in the stomach and lay dying. I have a copy of his report and also access to his photo.