Captured War Relics

[Jan Studd]

Have found in a local book of old photographs a picture taken in 1920 of the school at Tebay Westmorland with a field gun relic standing outside.

In another study of Kirkby Stephen, not to far away, "a heavy gun and carriage arrived in 1919" it was later sold for £25 for the upkeep of the War memorial in the town.

Was this a general activity after the Great War, and how did they arrive in this country?

If two small places such as those mentioned had a German relic, it must have been a large undertaking.

Who organised it, and who bore the cost?

Peter

[phil@basildon]

I do not know how it was organised or who paid for it, but my understanding was that these were war reparations that were handed out because there was no other use for them! The vast majority went in the scrap drives during WW2.

[Jan Studd]

Thanks Phil

[Terry_Reeves]

Peter

The following is from "Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire During the Great War" HMSO 1922:

" The War Trophies Committee was formed in November, 1916, the terms of reference being "to deal with all questions in regard to the distribution of trophies and watch the interests of the Imperial War Museum." The Under Secretary of State was the Chairman, and it was composed of representatives from the departments concerned, from India and the various overseas contingents. The word "Trophy" was defined as including all articles of captured enemy equipment, but such articles were only to be considered as trophies for distribution during the war, if unserviceable or not required for conversion. A large number of trophies, especially guns, had rival claimants, and the rule was laid down that substantial claims for trophies by units were to be only those having received War Office Authority.

When a claim for a gun ect, had been substantiated, the unit in question was asked its views as to the destination of the trophy, with the proviso that it went to a Regimental Depot, a recognized public body, or museum; up to present some 3, 595 guns, 15,044 machine guns, 75, 824 small arms and 7,887 other trophies had been distributed.

Large numbers of applications were received for allotment from County Authorities, Mayors and Corporations of cities and towns, Urban and Parish Councils and other communities. The Committee decided that allotment of the trophies to which no claim had been substantiated, had to be recommended by the Lord Lieutenant of the County.

A few trophies were received from Salonica, Egypt, Palestine and Mesopotamia. Trophies from France and Flanders were issued to the India Office for distribution to the Native Indian Regiments that served on the Western Front."

My research into this subject in my own area, shows that small arms, machine guns, helmets, bayonets ect, were stored in the cellar of the council house and then distributed after the requests had been sorted. There was a huge interest in these trophies, and many went to local schools, and organisations for display. Whilst it is true that larger items often went for scrap at the beginning of WW2, the smaller items appear to have gone to local individuals during the inter-war period, after interest had waned.

For those interested in such matters, local council minutes books can be an excellent source for finding who received what officially.

TR

[Mark Finneran]

If it is of use some 5,000 MG08 and 08/15s went to the USA around 1918, and 3,000 to Canada!! They too kept extensive registers of war trophies.

Mark

Peter

The following is from "Statistics of the Military Effort of the British Empire During the Great War" HMSO 1922:

" The War Trophies Committee was formed in November, 1916, the terms of reference being "to deal with all questions in regard to the distribution of trophies and watch the interests of the Imperial War Museum." The Under Secretary of State was the Chairman, and it was composed of representatives from the departments concerned, from India and the various overseas contingents. The word "Trophy" was defined as including all articles of captured enemy equipment, but such articles were only to be considered as trophies for distribution during the war, if unserviceable or not required for conversion. A large number of trophies, especially guns, had rival claimants, and the rule was laid down that substantial claims for trophies by units were to be only those having received War Office Authority.

When a claim for a gun ect, had been substantiated, the unit in question was asked its views as to the destination of the trophy, with the proviso that it went to a Regimental Depot, a recognized public body, or museum; up to present some 3, 595 guns, 15,044 machine guns, 75, 824 small arms and 7,887 other trophies had been distributed.

Large numbers of applications were received for allotment from County Authorities, Mayors and Corporations of cities and towns, Urban and Parish Councils and other communities. The Committee decided that allotment of the trophies to which no claim had been substantiated, had to be recommended by the Lord Lieutenant of the County.

A few trophies were received from Salonica, Egypt, Palestine and Mesopotamia. Trophies from France and Flanders were issued to the India Office for distribution to the Native Indian Regiments that served on the Western Front."

My research into this subject in my own area, shows that small arms, machine guns, helmets, bayonets ect, were stored in the cellar of the council house and then distributed after the requests had been sorted. There was a huge interest in these trophies, and many went to local schools, and organisations for display. Whilst it is true that larger items often went for scrap at the beginning of WW2, the smaller items appear to have gone to local individuals during the inter-war period, after interest had waned.

For those interested in such matters, local council minutes books can be an excellent source for finding who received what officially.

TR

[georgthomas1916]

Is there possibly a list of the Canadian War Trophies? And are the items cateloged by serial number and / or trophy number?

Thomas

[spof]

There's a German tank - Sturmpanzerwagen A7V "Mephisto" - out in Australia

http://www.qm.qld.gov.au/features/mephisto/index.asp

[scottmarchand]

We discussed this a while ago on the CEF Research forum with specific reference to trophies in Canada:

Bill Smy posted this

The National Archives of Canada was the federal agency responsible for the distribution of war trophies. The records are contained at:--

RG 37, Public Archives and National Library, Record of War Trophies, Series D.

The records are organized in ledgers by type of war trophy, where captured, unit effecting the capture, community or organization receiving the trophy, and destroyed in Europe.

For example, Ridley College in St Catharines received three 105 mm guns and five machine guns.

Interesting reading.

The two main threads are to be found here:

http://www.cefresearch.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...&highlight=

and here:

http://www.cefresearch.com/phpBB2/viewtopi...hlight=trophies

[georgthomas1916]

Thanks for the info. Looking for trophy numbered 270. Captured by the 2nd Canadian Division. Any ideas?

[Jan Studd]

Thanks to all for the information regarding this subject, it has been most helpful.

Peter

[Mark Finneran]

Can't get more 'captured' than this!!

[Mark Finneran]

and these...

[Mark Finneran]

Although these are images of our troops showing off their spoils, has anyone seen/have any images of vickers that have been modified and placed on the traditional sled mount? The German armourers would have welded/soldered on additional top and bottom trunions etc.

VMT

Mark

[Guns1418]

Hi

it looks like that Great-Britain is the country that lost most of its WW1 trophees during WW2 (bacause of war effort). Look at that world map gathering some 600 surviving WW1 guns in the world, and select only the "Central Powers" materials (Trophies)

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canon...anonsGoogle.htm

You'll see a lot of them in the whole old British Empire, in France, in Belgium, in USA, but about none in GB.

Bernard

[Mark Finneran]

Here is a war relic - partial dug up MG08/15. Just for interest!

Mark

[laughton]

Yes there is a list of Canadian war trophies and we are working on their history over here.

To start, check here:

http://cefresearch.com/matrix/Utilities/War%20Trophies/

I was able to track down exactly where our Town of Milton war trophy was captured. You can download that article from here:

http://www.miltonhistoricalsociety.ca/docu...onwartrophy.pdf

Is there possibly a list of the Canadian War Trophies? And are the items cateloged by serial number and / or trophy number?

Thomas

[Mark Finneran]

Recent find, UK captured trophy with battle damage.

I am still unaware of any British Register for war booty?

Mark

[matthew lucas]

not as far as i know -am still tring to find out more on m 08/15 with the trophy number and RSF on the stock, interestingly no maker details can be seen where the rear sight is ? corroded or replaced, but i have seen a few like this in museums with tropy numbers on them.....

matt

[Mark Finneran]

Images of captured weapons.

[Mark Finneran]

Relics that have been 'restored' to a presentable condition. Some like the black ''preserving'' paint whereas others prefer ''as is''.

[centurion]

It's a bit of a myth to say that most trophy weapons went for scrap in WW2 - a great many had been disposed of well before 1939 - some as early as the late 1920s along with the presentation tanks. A number of councils objected to the cost of maintaining them and the anti military movements of the 1930s made it the equivalent of non PC to display them in public places. The scrap drives of WW2 effectively cleared away what was left.