CWGC War Grave versus Non-War Grave

[Terry Denham]

It is often asked why there are some war graves with dates outside those of the two world wars. Well - There aren't any!

Confusion arises because there are a number of headstones which are similar in style to the standard CWGC official headstone but which differ in some respects to signify their status as a Non-World War Grave.

I thought Pals might like to have photos illustrating the different styles for reference purposes.

It is the top of the headstone which shows the difference. The date will also usually indicate an Non-World War Grave but not always - the grave could belong to an 'old soldier' who just happened to die during the war years (see pic 2) or to a merchant seaman who did not die through war causes and therefore not qualify for war grave status.

The first image is of the standard CWGC official war grave headstone for comparison. The Non-World War headstones are not supplied or maintained by CWGC (unless in one of their plots).

You will occasionally see a stone which breaks these rules. I know of an old soldier's stone which is a perfect copy of the CWGC stone although he died in the 1990s!

I hope this is of some use.

Official CWGC war grave headstone

[Terry Denham]

And an early style of Non-World War headstone.

[Terry Denham]

And the second later style used by CWGC when the Non-World War grave is in one of their cemeteries or plots. This grave is in the CWGC plot at West Thorney, Sussex.

Photo courtesy of Steve Rogers (Jolly Jack)

[Terry Denham]

And the next. This is the Non-World War style used by the MoD for the RAF. This grave is in the MoD plot at West Thorney, Sussex.

Photo courtesy of Steve Rogers (Jolly Jack)

[Terry Denham]

And the last. This is the Non-World War style used by the MoD for the army. This grave is in the MoD plot at West Thorney, Sussex.

Photo courtesy of Steve Rogers (Jolly Jack)

[andigger]

Great pics Terry.

As an infrequent traveler on the Western Front I recall there is also a meaning behind the spacing of the grave markers. Some are immediately next to each other (touching) and some are spaced apart. Do you mind explaining the difference? Andy

[Terry Denham]

Those that are close together usually indicate a communal grave (eg many casualties buried in a trench) or several bodies in two graves next to each other.

In the first instance each man usually has a headstone but in the second there will often be two names on each headstone. The name will be engraved in an order to indicate the order of burial - but if this is not known they will be in alphabetical sequence.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Terry, could you confirm that the REME chap was WO1 (ASM) Chris Baldwin. He was in charge of me when I was an apprentice.

If it's the same chap, I wasn't even aware that he had passed on.

[Terry Denham]

RT

As this is a Non-World War grave I have no further info than that on the headstone. If you look at the flower holder, you can see the name 'Colin'. This may be his name or that of a relative?

He is buried in West Thorney (St Nicholas) Churchyard Extension, West Sussex.

This is a difficult churchyard to get to as it is within Baker army base and special written permission is needed to approach by vehicle. However, there is a public footpath along the coast by which it can safely be reached - the graves are right by the beach.

There is a war grave plot maintained by CWGC (mostly WW2 airmen - the base used to be RAF Thorney Island) and some German airmen. The CWGC plot also contains one Non-World War grave for which CWGC care (see Dottin's headstone above). However, only a few yards away is a plot with 44 Non-World War graves including Baldwin's which are MoD's responsibility. This plot is still in use.

[Jolly jack]

Hi Terry

Glad the photos could be used to clear up the discrepencies!! I learnt something!!

Jolly Jack

[Jon Miller]

Terry, when you say 'dates outside those of the two world wars', I presume you mean 1914 - 1921 for the Great War?

[Terry Denham]

Jon

Yes. That is correct.

04.08.14 - 31.08.21 for WW1 or 03.09.39 - 31.12.47 for WW2 - dates inclusive.

[Jon Miller]

Thanks Terry.

Could you try and answer a couple more questions please? When were the CWGC headstones originally produced?

By the time they were being produced, presumably in UK churchyards families had already erected their own headstones for their dead relative(s)? Or did some of them make do with a temporary wooden cross or the like, until such time that CWGC headstones were to be produced? In my research, I have, like many others I presume, have found family headstones with earlier dates than CWGC stones, even though they are all post-armistice. Of course, I have come across family stones for those who died during the war, so maybe it's not that great an issue.

[Terry Denham]

You are correct.

By the time that the official IWGC stone was available 1919 onwards, many UK graves already had private headstones (same in other home countries - Canada etc). Some may have been wooden crosses pending the official stone.

You can find private headstones pre-dating the war with war grave names added later. You can even find graves with a CWGC headstone and a later private stone as well - added when other family members died later.

There are many combinations - all due to the fact that when a casualty died in the UK or other home country, the n-o-k had the right to choose their style of headstone. Of course, most of the graves with private headstones are privately owned also and, of course, CWGC has no responsibility for maintaining private headstones.

[spike10764]

This stone is in Dalston Road Cemetery - Carlisle. it is placed among other CWGC stones in a plot. Anyone have any clues as to it's unusual shape

[Terry Denham]

Spike

This is a Czechoslovak war grave style headstone of WW2.

Many Czech pilots served in the RAF. Even though they were members of a Commonwealth force and should have the normal CWGC headstone, it was often permitted for them to have a headstone of their own national style if so desired. Same went for the Poles.

However, sometimes you will also see Czechs and Poles in the RAF with a normal CWGC stone.

To complicate matters, some Poles were still members of the Polish Air Force although flying with the RAF. These graves always have a Polish style headstone as their occupants were not in a Commonwealth force!

You will find the man in your photo in the CWGC database as he was a member of a Commonwealth force and technically 'British'. Of course, those still in the Czech or Polish forces will not appear in the CWGC list.

Clear??????????

[spike10764]

Terry,

Been away all week- so I didn't not reply?? out of ignorance here.

Thank you for shining some light on the subject, such as light may be shone on it

regards

Spike

[Aurel Sercu]

I know this thread was disappearing. But I just wondered if elsewhere, on other CWGC cemeteries, there are similar headstones.

Hospital Farm Cemetery, Elverdinge, approx. 100 graves. (Near Ypres ; a cemetery 150 m from the road, no path leading to it, you just have to walk through the farmer's meadow, avoiding a distribution of cow-pats).

I found that this is the grave of a "French civilian".

Which puzzles me. Not only because I wonder what a French civilian is doing here in a British cemetery in Flanders, but also because the surname Top is not uncommon in the Ypres area. Why not a Belgian civilian ? (Knowing that so often in contemporary sources Ypres and surrounding villages are located in France).

Of course we could ask Terry D. But Terry cannot be expected to know everything...

Anyway, not really important. I think. Just wanted to add this style.

(Actually I vaguely remember reading something about this, but I can't remember where ...)

Aurel

[Terry Denham]

Aurel

This headstone was obviously designed to be in keeping with the CWGC stones. This can be seen in a number of cemeteries which also have Non-World War graves in CWGC Care or Foreign National war graves.

The above is classified as the latter (rather than being a Non-World War Grave as illustrated at the beginning of this thread) and there is only the bare minimum of information in the CWGC database on this person as below...

TOP, Civilian, MARCEL, French Civilian. 11th August 1915. Row B Grave 18

I am sure you can find out what happened to him

[salientpoints]

Here's an interesting one -

Does anyone know of any other British Muslim CWGC headstone?

Ryan

[Terry Denham]

Ryan

There are many muslim CWGC stones on the Western Front and elsewhere. In Brookwood Military Cemetery you will see a plot of about thirty of them. If by 'British', you mean non-Indian Army, then many muslim casualties from the Egyptian forces lie in the Middle East and other colonial troops of that faith lie elsewhere. There are also many muslim members of the MN. They are all recorded as being 'United Kingdom' casualties.

What is interesting about the above picture is that it is NOT a CWGC war grave stone (check the top against the pics in the early part of this thread). It is a Non-World War headstone meaning that the occupant does not qualify for war grave status as he did not die on duty and of a war cause (as required for members of the Recognised Civilian Organisations).

Here is the man's basic entry from the CWGC Non-World War section of the database.

AZEOUR ULLA, Oiler, S.S. "City of Florence". Merchant Navy. 14th April 1940. Plot 16 Row B Grave 10. Bayeux War Cemetery, France.

On this occasion the non-war grave headstone was almost certainly provided by CWGC (most are not) as the man lies in a CWGC cemetery.

[salientpoints]

Thanks Terry, I did wonder (albeit briefly) about the cut corners but assumed (wrongly) it may be the 'type' for Muslim CWGC stones.

Obviously not and I thank you for the info on the additional plots as I had never seen one until this day.

It was interesting to see French, German, British, British Muslim, French Muslim (Algerian?), Czech, Polish and Russian headstones in Bayeux

Cheers

Ryan

[Terry Denham]

I thought that I would add this further example of a Non-World War headstone.

This is a style used between the two wars - in this case in 1922.

Photo courtesy of Dave Gregory.

[salientguide]

I dont have a photo but one of the pals on here may, I remember up in the Tower Hamlets area of the Salient, south of the Menin Rd coming across a private burial in a small plot by the side of the road of an English soldier, marked by a headstone in the style of a CWGC marker. The stone stated the chap had been wounded there in 1917 hed gone on into his 70s probably buried there in the 1980s.

Ring a bell with anyone.? Anyone have a photo?

I,m also interested in private burials and headstones of casualties. If you look on Toms Hellfire Corner site at a small article I did on the local Erdington churchyard Birmingham theres an excellent headstone to "one of Britains heroes" a casualty of the Somme as well as several fine family memorials. I think we should be seeking to preserve more of these.

salientguide

[BatterySergeantMajor]

Also some interesting stones on Ieper communal cemetery with CWGC-stones (or look-a-likes) for some employees of the CWGC. Regret I have no photo.

Erwin