16th June 1915 Bellewaarde Ypres

[martinclift]

Hi. This is my first post.

I would like to find any information about Austin or his battalion prior to 16th June 1915

I originally asked a friend who uses this forum to help, however he came up with a blank. That was 2006.

I didn't give up as I was sure something would turn up. Unfortunately as I changed jobs I lost touch with him and I can't find him today.

So this is to say thank you to him and anyone else who tried to find information.

I have managed to come across a copy of the Battalion diary for 16th June 1915 and have transcribed it best I could, any errors you notice please let me know.

I thought that I should share it with you and please any comments would be gratfully received.

Martin

1st_Battalion_Northumberland_Fusiliers_Diary_16th_June_1915.doc

[azureus]

Hi Martin welcome to the forum , were you researching a certain soldier at the time you asked your friend for help?

regards Dave

[martinclift]

Hi Martin welcome to the forum , were you researching a certain soldier at the time you asked your friend for help?

regards Dave

Hi Dave

Thanks for the welcome.

Yes I was looking for information about my Great Uncle, Austin Broughton of W Coy. The only information I had was that from CWGC.

I now know where he fell, who he was with and what actually happened.

One point that is very puzzling is that his MIC states KIA, however when you check the listing at the end of the diary the Officer has written 'Wounded'. It would appear that the list was made at roll call that evening, the soldiers who did not answer that call were recorded as missing.

I can't imagin that an Officer would record a soldier as wounded unless the chap was there in front of him. So what did happen to him.

Casualties from W Coy who did manage to get to an Aid Station and then to hospital in England were recorded in July 1915 as 33, 14 of those were originally recorded as missing.

At this moment in time I can only assume he died on the 16th because that is what has been stated by CWGC.

Of course if anyone does have information of the 1st Battalion Northumberland before the 16th June I would be grateful.

Martin

[barry1]

Hi Martin,

Firstly I have spent the evening following your whole story and must congratulate you on how far you've came, and also amazed at the help you've been given along the way.

I first spotted you on 'rootschat' and followed your advice to 'ypres battle forum' and here and have learnt so much so quick. (right now the challenge)...

My great grandad was in the '1st Northumberland Fusiliers' and also died on the 16th june 1915, (alough I cant find any evidence of him on you casulty index???)

earlier tonight I had no Idea of his movements in france but after a lot of reading hope I may have found answers Via your research (thanks) Im asuming that as your relative iwas in the same battalion that they would share roughtly the same movements??? Is that a bad assumption?

I have checked the national archives and all ancestry.coms records and also the cwgc (I also have his 1914-15 mons star medal and his grandson currently has the death plaque) and this is what I know;

James Elliott Mavin

born 1879 tynemouth

1st northumberland Fusiliers

private 5938

theatre first served in France

entry 23rd nov 1914

killed in action in east Ypres 16th june 1915

(and according to the local newspaper he also served in the boar war)

I'd love it if the 1st NF diaries you have (spotted in other forum) relate to my great grandad, but I'm a bit like you and need to know with confidence.

cheers hope to hear from you soon

Barry.

[Graham Stewart]

3555 Pte Austin Frank Broughton of Gloucester enlisted as a regular soldier sometime between April and July 1913. According to my sources he served in 'A' Coy, 1st BN, but he is only listed as "Wounded" in July 1915 and in August 1915 re-listed as "Wounded & Missing". This would imply that he has been seen to have been wounded by a comrade, but possibly too badly injured to retreive. On a regrouping of the battalion and after the Roll Call an effort would have been made to find him, knowing he was wounded, which seems to have failed, so he has been re-catagorised as "W&MIA", in the hope he was possibly found by the enemy.

[Graham Stewart]

5938 Pte James Elliott Mavin also appears to be a regular soldier and posssibly enlisted around August 1899.

[barry1]

5938 Pte James Elliott Mavin also appears to be a regular soldier and posssibly enlisted around August 1899.

Cheers for that,

My mam has a newspaper clipping from the 'Shields weekly news' and it say he also served in the Boar war.

this is something I have no idea about (at least I know a bit about WW1 and how to research) any ideas on how to follow that up?

heres a pic of him, ( which appeared in the paper (we have the original)) complete with a mystery....

he is down as a private in the records and on the menin gate, but the newspaper says hes a lance corp. and to mix it up a bit theres a post (in 'soldiers' section about James) where someone says the rank on his arm is full corp???

help!

cheers.

Barry

[Graham Stewart]

He's a Corporal in the photo you've posted, but it's possible he may have reverted to the rank of Pte.

[barry1]

Firstly... sorry Martin I feel like I've Hijacked your post a little,

(check my profile for this post proper and others)

heres a newspaper item about James refering to him as a Corporal,

His Grandson visited Ypres a few years ago and said the pannels on the Menin Gate ( 8 and 12) had him listed as a Private???

Hmm confused? does anyone know where I can see any pictures of the pannels, if just to settle my mam, it drives her bonkers.

I'd like to take her there soon, which is partly why Im investigating his movements.

thanks.

Barry

[martinclift]

Hi all.

Well thank you for your input.

The original post that started this thread is now a little out of date, my research has progressed somewhat.

1) Thanks Graham, I have discovered that you are right in that Austin was recorded as wounded and that was probably noted by another soldier who saw him go down but, also saw him moving. The action that day went back andforth and also many shells were rained down on the front by both sides. It could therefore be that he was wounded and died of those wounds or he was hit by a blast or shrapnel at any rate his body was never found. At the end of the 16th June the ground taken by the British was lost again to the Germans, his body may have been left on the wrong side of the front.

You are also right in saying that his company is recorded as 'A' and I have shown it as 'W'. Apparently where there more tha one battalion at the same area of conflict confusion used to happen as to where to target artillary, messages would be confused etc. So some battalions changed the company letters to ensure this did not happen. W=A X=B Y=C and Z=D "I know it confused me as well!"

Austin did join in the back end of 1914 and joined his battalion just after Christmas 1915. I am still trying to find out when the Northumberlands where the Nortumberlands were recruiting in Gloucester.

Hi Barry

No it's O.K. you are not hijacking the post - all replies are of great interest to me and other forum members.

I will P.M. my email address to you as I think I have information than you have read about.

Thanks

Martin

[martinclift]

3555 Pte Austin Frank Broughton of Gloucester enlisted as a regular soldier sometime between April and July 1913. According to my sources he served in 'A' Coy, 1st BN, but he is only listed as "Wounded" in July 1915 and in August 1915 re-listed as "Wounded & Missing". This would imply that he has been seen to have been wounded by a comrade, but possibly too badly injured to retreive. On a regrouping of the battalion and after the Roll Call an effort would have been made to find him, knowing he was wounded, which seems to have failed, so he has been re-catagorised as "W&MIA", in the hope he was possibly found by the enemy.

Hi Graham.

I just noticed something after I posted to you and Barry, sorry.

You state that Austin was re-listed in August, can I ask where this came from as I have never seen it?

Many thanks Graham

Martin

[barry1]

Thanks Martin,

would love to Know what new info you got, I cant get over how much knowledge Ive gained from you guys in such a short time, I'm amazed at were you all get your Info.

You got any idea on whay 'Coy' Corp. James Elliott Mavin would have been in,

also intrigued about the change in company letter W=A etc, was that if another battalion with the same 'coy' letters turned up? and would it just be a temp thing?

thanks,

P.S hows the website shaping up?

Barry.

[Graham Stewart]

"Austin did join in the back end of 1914 and joined his battalion just after Christmas 1915. I am still trying to find out when the Northumberlands where the Nortumberlands were recruiting in Gloucester."

Sorry Martin he was definately a 1913 enlistment and not 1914, clearly indicated by his number. He was one of a few from Gloucester who enlisted into the NF in 1913. Three others were;-

3562 Pte Reginald Gilbert Greening

3577 Pte Robert Bantock

3579 Pte Squire Rawson

The re-listing from simply "wounded" to "W&MIA" appears in the August 1915 edition of St.Georges Gazette the regimental journal.

Both the 1st & 2nd Bn's, NF had the Company indicators 'A'; 'B'; 'C' & 'D' Coys. The problem arose when the 2nd Bn arrived from India and served in the same sector as the 1st Bn as their companies were also lettered 'A' - 'D'. To get over the problem one of the battalions changed the company indicator to 'W'; 'X'; 'Y' & 'Z' Coy's, which I believe was the 1st Bn.

[barry1]

Hi Graham,

Thats of great interest, that whole 'Coy' name change could really catch you out.

any ideas on what 'coy' Corp. James Elliott Mavin 5938 1st Northumberland Fusiliers would have been in?

How long would they have retained the ABCD name? and would they revert back?

[Graham Stewart]

Barry having read your newspaper clipping it would appear that James had left the Army, but had gone back on the outbreak of the War. This leaves us with a problem as to how long he actually served as a regular, which under normal circumstances was for 12years, which consisted of 7years with the Colours and 5years in the Reserve.

Under those terms he would have left the Army in 1906 - however his final discharge wouldn't have been completed until August 1911. On the other hand he could have gone to complete 12years regular Colour service, without going onto the Reserve and so he would have left the Army without further commitment in August 1911.

Therefore in my opinion his rank of Corporal was infact his pre-WWI rank prior to leaving the Army and on re-enlistment he would have had to start at the bottom as Pte.

[barry1]

This would make total sense.

(and set my mams mind to rest)

Thanks,

Ill be ringing her later to see if she can expand on anthing,

[martinclift]

Hi Graham

You know, I think you may have confirmed a family story. Without boring you with too much detail, I will explain.

My Great Grandmother always said (before I was born) that her son joined up when he was under age. This information

could make Austin 16 or 17 years old at signing on.

I had also wondered why he joined the NF when his elder brother was a sergeant in the Gloucestershire regiment, I suppose it

could be that he thought they might have known his age so he went to the NF with a better chance of not being detected.

....and there I am thinking that I had it sorted.

Thanks Graham, if you have anything else please let me know

[Ian Riley]

Martin,

If you e-mail me through my address at www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk I may be a able to provide some additional sources but please leave it until the middle of next week as I am struggling without my main PC this week and battling with a large number of exam papers to mark (on line which in my current IT climate is not good). I have just come ito the Forum for a quick break from marking and will not be back regularly for a while so e-mail is better than a PM

Ian

[martinclift]

"Austin did join in the back end of 1914 and joined his battalion just after Christmas 1915. I am still trying to find out when the Northumberlands where the Nortumberlands were recruiting in Gloucester."

Sorry Martin he was definately a 1913 enlistment and not 1914, clearly indicated by his number. He was one of a few from Gloucester who enlisted into the NF in 1913. Three others were;-

3562 Pte Reginald Gilbert Greening

3577 Pte Robert Bantock

3579 Pte Squire Rawson

The re-listing from simply "wounded" to "W&MIA" appears in the August 1915 edition of St.Georges Gazette the regimental journal.

Both the 1st & 2nd Bn's, NF had the Company indicators 'A'; 'B'; 'C' & 'D' Coys. The problem arose when the 2nd Bn arrived from India and served in the same sector as the 1st Bn as their companies were also lettered 'A' - 'D'. To get over the problem one of the battalions changed the company indicator to 'W'; 'X'; 'Y' & 'Z' Coy's, which I believe was the 1st Bn.

Hi Graham

I have been thinking about this post and I was just wondering if you managed to come across the date the NF were in Gloucester?

Also another thought crossed my mind, why didn't Austin go to France in mid 1914 with the rest of the 1st battalion, what could be so important that he stayed in the UK until the back end of 1914, if he was 19 when he died in June 1915 then he would be of age?

Can you also tel me how I can access the St.Georges Gazette?

Martin

[punjab612]

Can you also tel me how I can access the St.Georges Gazette?

There are several copies in the NF Achives at Alnwick, so a research fee or visit is called for. There may be some in local libraries in the North East.

Otherwise start saving the pennies and hope some come available on the second ahand book market. The prices being asked range from about £40 to £175 - this is per edition, which covers just one year - so lots of pennies needed.

Peter

[martinclift]

Thanks for that Peter, I think I should check my piggy bank

Martin