Tinhat47 Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 What's the difference? Is one more combat-based and the other more labor-based? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Matt, There are many answers to your question. However,as a start. If you access Forum Member John Duncan's Web-site-Newbattle at War.Look for the history of the 8th Royal Scots(you may have to register on the site,to gain access,but its painless and secure )The 8th Royal Scots became a Pioneer Battalion,in WW1,so their history will give you some idea of the role of this type of Battalion. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Thanks, I'll definitely check that out! I guess I should have said that I'm thinking more in specifically terms of the Royal Engineers. For instance, the difference between a Pioneer in the 2nd Labour Battalion, R.E. and a Sapper in the 11th Labour Battalion, R.E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 would that I knew! The RE and RA seem to have done man-for-man marking since time immemorial, what with the mysteries of bombardier versus second-corporal, and, in this instance, two sorts of private soldiers, gunners and drivers versus sappers and pioneers. You need an RE expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Jones Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 I can’t pose as a fully-rounded RE expert but my understanding of this is that to be a Sapper you have to pass a trade test, i.e. as bricklayer, carpenter etc. The rank of Pioneer was introduced in the Royal Engineers in 1913 owing to a shortage of tradesmen. During WW1 Pioneers in the RE might be trained only in basic field engineering (or combat engineering as it is now known). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speake Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 My grandfather was a captain with the 124th Canadian Pioneer Battalion in Toronto (they were re-named in early 1915 from the Governor General's Body Guards). The pioneers were responsible for maintaining trenches installing South African barbed wire fencing, installing duck boards, building bridges, laying communication cable and communication trenches. As well they constructed buildings, created and maintained roads for artillery and mules. They were not a labour battalion. Most of their work was done at night, yet over 10% were killed. Sappers it seems to me, and was pointed out earlier, had a trade such as carpentry, and some, I believe, were used to create the subways, dugouts and other unique but vital trench facilities. In June 1918, the 124th was rolled into the 12 Canadian Engineers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Matt, You may find this War Diary entry interesting,again from the 8th Royal Scots. 27th May 1915-The battalion having been selected as a Pioneer Battalion.a start was made to training Officers ,N.C.O'S in the new work.2 Officers and 110 ranks of the R.E. were attached to the Battalion to give instruction in R.E. work. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Simon has it right, although the rank of pioneer was introduced a year earlier, in 1912. With a few exceptions, to enter the RE men had to have a recognised trade and were given the rank of Sapper, along with an enhanced rate of pay. The shortage of skilled artizans immediately pre-war however, forced the introduction of unskilled men who were given the rank of Pioneer, and as Simon has mentioned, received training in fieldworks. The rank was abolished in 1919/20. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 8 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Thanks for the explanation guys! That makes a lot more sense with the more R.E. war records that I go over, especially with the proficiency papers I sometimes find in them. A lot of them are pretty typical ... pre-war telegraphist gets proficiency in signals, general laborers get proficieny in joining or construction ... although I got a great one today -- a pre-war clerk who passed proficiency tests as highly skilled lighterman and waterman in the IWT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David B Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 Sean, Your job description for the Canadian pioneers exactly matches the Australian pioneers. My uncle was in the 3rd Australian pioneers. They were also coopted for front line fighting when the occasion arose, and as you say over 10 percent were killed. In fact one of the third pioneers won a VC. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 The New Army divisions had labour battalions who seem all to have been transferred 1917 into the Labour Corps. They seem to have been men who were not fit for frontline action. One of my Grandfathers was conscripted into Seaforths and transferred in this way. He was wounded by artillery while road mending/building and eventually died of the wound. Forum Pal Ivor Lee is the man for Labour Corps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltoro1960 Posted 8 May , 2009 Share Posted 8 May , 2009 As George (dycer) has already indicated the 8th Royal Scots were the Pioneers for the 51st Highland Division, they were were first and foremost infantry men who performed a 101 tasks for their division. Any pre-conceptions of pioneers being 'behind the line' should be dismissed. Infantry pioneers were frequently in front of the infantry diggings saps, new trench lines, sorting barbed wire etc , in the lines of communication they repaired roads (death trap) and laid light railways amongst other tasks. In 1918 the 8th RS held the line resolutely against the German advance and had their Commanding Officer killed (the 2nd one) in the process. I believe you were on my website this evening, if you have any problems accessing it or have any questions please feel free to ask. John Toms post has ovelapped with mine, his point regarding road mending tragically reinforces my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrim Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 My Grandfather, a Gunner with the RGA was wounded and after convalescing he received training at Woolwich. There he was certified as a hammerman and posted to the RE. His pay became 1/4 per diem. I have no idea what he received as a gunner with 2+ years service. Interestingly, he had two regimental numbers with the RE. One was all numbers, the second, a completely different number, was preceded by W.R. I don't know what that stood for but would guess something like "Warrent Rating" or something like that. I imagine that came at the time of certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 9 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2009 The WR prefix is for men who served in either Inland Waterways Transport or in Railway Construction companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrim Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Thank you for that Matt. That's the unit he was in. I never would have guessed it. I appreciate your filling in one more gap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrim Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Matt Is there any website that helps with deciphering some of the initials that appear in Service records? They're full of them and subject to misinterpretation as I did here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 9 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2009 The main list I always visit is here: http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/sho...ead.php?t=36226 I know at some point the folks here at GWF compiled an even larger master list, but I can't seem to find the thread. Maybe someone who remembers it will see this and unearth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auchonvillerssomme Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 X - Royal Navy & Royal Marines After divisional letters indicates new pay code enlistment 1/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Samoan Advance Force 10/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Wellington Rifles 11/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Wellington Mounted Rifles 12/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Auckland Rifles 13/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Auckland Mounted Rifles 14/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Army Service Corps Divisional Train 15/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Expeditionary Force Headquarters Staff 15/ - West Yorkshire Regiment 15th (Leeds Pals) Battalion 16/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Maori Battalion 17/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Veterinary Corps 18/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Chaplains Department 19/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Samoan Relief Force, Infantry 2/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Royal New Zealand Artillery 20/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Samoan Relief Force, Mounted Rifles 21/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Army Pay Corps 22/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Nursing Service 23/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force 1st Battalion, New Zealand Rifle Brigade 24/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force 2nd Battalion, New Zealand Rifle Brigade 25/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force 3rd Battalion, New Zealand Rifle Brigade 26/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force 4th Battalion, New Zealand Rifle Brigade 3/ - Seaforth Highlanders 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Medical Corps 3/ - Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - Royal Berkshire Regiment 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - Gordon Highlanders 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - Royal Highlanders 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 3/ - Cameron Highlanders 3rd (Reserve) Battalion 4/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Engineers 4/ - Royal Irish Rifles 4th (Extra Reserve) Battalion 5/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force New Zealand Army Service Corps 5/ - Connaught Rangers 5th (Service) Battalion 6/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Canterbury Infantry 7/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Canterbury Mounted Rifles 8/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Otago Rifles 9/ - New Zealand Expeditionary Force Otago Mounted Rifles A - Army Service Corps Old Army Special Reserve A - King's Royal Rifle Corps Early wartime recruits A - Royal Scots Fusiliers 3rd (Reserve) Battalion A - King's Own Scottish Borderers 3rd (Reserve) Battalion A - Highland Light Infantry 3rd (Reserve) Battalion A - Scottish Rifles 3rd (Reserve) Battalion A - Army Ordnance Corps A - Royal Fleet Reserve First period of enlistment A - Royal Navy Alexandria (World War II Only) A - Australia Silver War Badge Prefix A (HT) - Army Service Corps Horse Transport Special Reserve AA - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anti-Aircraft ARMR - Army Ordnance Corps Armourer ASE - Army Service Corps ASR - Army Service Corps B - Royal Fusiliers 26th (Banker's) Battalion B - Royal Fleet Reserve Second Period of Enlistment B - King's Royal Rifle Corps B - Highland Light Infantry Service No. 21000 onwards all ex-RA / Cavalry B - Highland Light Infantry 4th (Special Reserve) Battalion B - Scottish Rifles 4th (Special Reserve) Battalion B - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Bristol Division B - Unknown Silver War Badge Prefix B - Army Service Corps Special Reserve B (HT) - Army Service Corps Horse Transport Special Reserve TF BZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Bristol Division wartime enlistment C - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Clyde Division C - King's Royal Rifle Corps 16th Battalion onwards enlistment C - Royal Fleet Reserve 3rd Period of Enlistment C - Royal Munster Fusiliers 1st Garrison Battalion C - Middlesex Regiment C - Rifle Brigade C - Royal Fleet Reserve Chatham C - Royal Navy Chatham C (MT) - Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport Special Reserve CAT - Army Service Corps Caterpillar Mechanical Transport CH - Royal Marines Chatham Division Royal Marine Light Infantry CH - Royal Fleet Reserve Chatham CH/RMP - Royal Marine Police Chatham CHT - Army Service Corps Corps of Horse Transport CMT - Army Service Corps Corps of Motor Transport CZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Clyde Division wartime enlsitment D - Dragoons D - Royal Fleet Reserve Devonport D - Royal Navy Devonport DEAL - Royal Marines Deal Depot DEPOT / D - Royal Marine Light Infantry Deal Depot Permanent Staff DEV - Royal Fleet Reserve Devonport DM2 - Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport Learners, discontinued 11/16 E - Royal Fusiliers 17th (Empire) Battalion E - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Birmingham Electrical Volunteers E - Army Service Corps Forage (ordinary rates of army pay) EX - Royal Marines Exton Division (World War II Only) F - Middlesex Regiment 17th & 23rd (Football) Battalions F - Royal Naval Air Service F - Army Service Corps Forage (not paid from Army Funds) F - Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm FAA - Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm (World War II Only) G - Royal Irish Fusiliers 1st, 2nd 3rd (Garrison) Battalion G - Home Counties Regiments New Army men and later GOA - Royal Navy Goa GS - British Army General Service Enlistment GSR - Royal Sussex Regiment Special Reserve, enlisted under hostilities only terms GSSR - Royal Sussex Regiment Special Reserve, enlisted under hostilities only terms H - Hussars H - Hussars H - North Irish Horse Given to all on strength in mid-1917 I - India Silver War Badge Prefix J - Royal Navy Seaman branch Prefix J - Royal Fusiliers 38th, 39th 40th, 42nd (Judean) Battalions J - Royal Navy Seamen and Communications K - "Kitchener battalion"??? K - Royal Navy Stokers K - Royal Fusiliers 22nd (Kensington) Battalion K - Royal Navy Stokers and Mechanicians KP - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Crystal Palace Enlistment from Kitchener's New Armies KW - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Crystal Palace Enlistment from Kitchener's New Armies KX - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Crystal Palace Enlistment from Kitchener's New Armies L - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve London Division L - Lancers L - Home Counties Regiments Regulars L - Royal Artillery Wartime enlistment L - South Wales Borderers 3rd (Reserve) Battalion L - Lancers L - Royal Navy Officers' Stewards, some Officers' Cooks L - Royal Navy Lee-on-Solent (FAA) LSR - Royal Sussex Regiment Special Reserve, enlisted under regular terms LT - Royal Navy Lowestoft (World War II Only) LT - Royal Navy Lowestoft (World War II Only) LZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve London Division wartime enlistment M - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Mersey Division M - Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport M - Royal Navy Miscellaneous enlistments (e.g. writers etc.) M - Royal Navy Others -Artificers, Electrical, Supply etc M1 & 2/(SR) - Army Service Corps Enlisted Special Reserve for New Armies M1, 2 - Army Service Corps Mechanical Transport MALTA - Royal Navy Malta MB - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Motor Boat Reserve MC - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Mine Clearance Service MN - Merchant Navy Silver War Badge Prefix MS - Army Service Corps Mechanical Specials MZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Mersey Division wartime enlistment N - Royal Army Medical Corps N - Royal Navy NAAFI staff (World War II Only) NZ - New Zealand Silver War Badge Prefix O - Rifle Brigade O - Unknown Silver War Badge Prefix P - Military Foot Police Police P - Royal Fleet Reserve Portsmouth P - Royal Navy Portsmouth P - Dragoon Guards PET - Army Service Corps Petroleum Dept PLY - Royal Marines Plymouth Division RMLI PLY/RMP - Royal Marine Police Plymouth PO - Royal Marines Portsmouth Division RMLI PO - Royal Fleet Reserve Portsmouth PO/RMP - Royal Marine Police Portsmouth Prefix Unit Designation PS - Royal Fusiliers 18th, 19th, 20th & 21st (Public Schools) Battalions PS - Middlesex Regiment 16th (Public Schools) Battalion PW - Middlesex Regiment 18th, 19th & 26th (Public Works) Battalions PZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Crystal Palace Enlistment from civilian life R Royal Navy Rosyth (World War II Only) R - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Royal Naval Division R - Army Service Corps Remounts R - King's Royal Rifle Corps Later recruits up to 16th Battalion R - Army Service Corps Army Remount Section R4, RX4 - Army Service Corps 1st/2nd/3rd/4th New Armies Remounts RAF - Royal Air Force Silver War Badge Prefix RM - Royal Marines Silver War Badge Prefix RMA - Royal Marines Royal Marine Artillery RMB - Royal Marines Royal Marine Band RME - Royal Marines Royal Marine Engineers RN - Royal Navy Silver War Badge Prefix RS & R/TS - Army Service Corps Remount Specials RX - Army Service Corps Army Remount Section S - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Sussex Division S - Army Service Corps Supply Branch S - Scottish Regiments Wartime Enlistment S - Army Service Corps Supply Branch S - Royal Army Medical Corps S - Royal Artillery S - Highland Regiments Wartime Enlistment S - Home Counties Regiments 3rd Battalion S - Rifle Brigade S - Royal Munster Fusiliers S - Army Ordnance Corps S - Dorset Regiment S1, 2, 3, 4 - Army Service Corps 1st/2nd/3rd/4th New Armies Supply (S4 Labour) SA - South Africa Silver War Badge Prefix SD - Sussex Regiment 11th, 12th & 13th (South Downs) Battalions SE - Army Veterinary Corps 9th Section SF - Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm (Short Service) SK - Royal Navy Stokers (Short Service) SM - Royal Navy Miscellaneous (Short Service) SPTS Royal Fusiliers 23rd & 24th (Sportman) Battalions SR - British Army Special Reserve ? SRMT - Army Service Corps Special Reserve Motor Transport SS - Army Service Corps Supply Specials SS - Royal Navy Seamen and Communications (Short Service) STK - Royal Fusiliers 10th (Stockbroker's) Battalion SWS - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Shore Wireless Service SZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Sussex Division wartime enlistment T - Army Service Corps Horse Transport T - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Tyne Division T - Army Ordnance Corps T - Territorial Force T1 & 2/(SR) - Army Service Corps Enlisted Special Reserve for New Armies T1, 2, 3, 4 - Army Service Corps 1st/2nd/3rd/4th New Armies Horse Transport TF - Territorial Force TS - Army Service Corps Transport Specials TT - Army Veterinary Corps Territorial Force ? TZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Tyne Division wartime enlistment W - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Wales Division W - Cheshire Regiment 13th (Wirral) Battalion W - Royal Artillery 38th (Welsh) Division WR - Royal Engineers Waterways and Railways WT4 - Army Service Corps Welsh ????? WZ - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Wales Division wartim enlistment Y - Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Deferred enlistment (replaced by divisional prefix on actual enlistment) Y - King's Royal Rifle Corps Early wartime enlistment Z - Rifle Brigade There are various references to where the list originated but I think this is fairly comprehensive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinhat47 Posted 9 May , 2009 Author Share Posted 9 May , 2009 That's it! I'd like to add one to the list: NAC - Navy/Army Canteens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 A friend of mine was a Pioneer in an RE unit. He said that the Pioneers were the labourers for the Sappers. http://www.ypressalient.co.uk/War%20Diarie...aulman%20wd.htm - His diary is here. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrim Posted 9 May , 2009 Share Posted 9 May , 2009 Thank you Matt for the website and auchonvillerssomme for the listing. They are both very helpful to a newbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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