Red Baron

[Signals]

Hi John,

Regarding MvR, the bullet would have met no resistance passing through the fuselage fabric. As the aircraft was at approx 150 - 200 feet high and passing close to the Australian troops on the ground I would have expected the range from the MG on the ground to be well under 1000 yards. At that range it would have been going at full speed, yet it clearly just exited the body as was stopped by the flying suit, indicating that it may have been fired from more that 2000 yards away. I'm not sure if this point has been reviewed by experts yet (if not you heard it here first).

We all know at the end of the day no one will ever, or can ever say, who it was, and that is where it will always remain in history. I think everyone does agree it was ground fire and all researchers have done is attempt to come up with the most likely with available evidence. With your comments it does make me revisit the Franklyn comments.

'I immediately rushed to my lewis gun which I had on a tripod and fired at him at very close range about 30 rounds, one round in every 4 being a tracer bullet so that the course of the bullet could be observed, I then saw him crash to the ground. To be objective here, where did he hit him?

The reason researchers have pointed out Popkin, was that he was the only machine gunner known to have fired at Richthofen from the right, and from a long distance, immediately before he landed. This does not exclude someone else as you have suggested. I have read a piece that excluded Popkin as he was too far away, but with what you have suggested you would pick him over Franklyn.

We will never know.

[dekenai]

G'day All,

Quite good work here, well done all. I will have my 2 bobs worth just for the hell of it!

As others have said, it is all conjecture, and the 'facts' are confusing.

What do we know?

1. There was NO autopsy. The Rittmeisters body was examined and the bullet path probed, it was not opened to determine cause of death.

2. As evident from the seat, the cockpit wasn't hosed with MG fire and his body didn't sustain multiple hits. Unfortunately the acft was 'ripped' apart by soveigneer hunters so the fabric couldn't be examined for hits.

3. He flew on for at least another minute and about another mile before crashing, AFTER Brown had put a burst into the acft. He also continued firing at May.

4. Brown or May didn't see him crash.

5. The DR.1 does not have trim controls, or trimmable surfaces. I have just emailed my mate who flew a DR.1 at Point Cook in Victoria, he says nice acft but needed hands on flying, it was stable but had vices, like over balancing the rudder if the input was harsh---

6. Buie shot from below and from the FRONT of the 'tripe'.

7. Popkins shot from the left initially, then as the acft reversed shot to the right hand side of the tripe, but at extreme deflection and distance.

What don't we know?

A few questions come to my mind.

Why did MvR break off the fight and turn back over hostile MG posts?--(a biggie for me)

Why didn't the tracer rounds set fire to the acft, if as stated, the M/Gunners in question raked him with good prolonged bursts?

Why wasn't his body hit multiple times?

How long after a (heart) shot does it take one to lose consciousness in the air?

Theory No. 1, 364--according to me----

As l see it, Brown could only have fatally hit MvR if the 'Tripe' was at a 90dg left bank attitude and brown slightly higher and to the right. Brown said he,"--dived down on a pure red Triplane which was firing on Lt May. I got a long burst into him and he went down vertical and was observed to crash by Lt Mellersh, and Lt May".

so, Brown didn't see the crash after shooting at him, and May didn't see the crash either, no statements by May to that effect were made--he was OBSERVED to crash, but when?

Lt Fraser the Intelligence Offr on the ground who saw the scrap, said that after he heard the prolonged MG burst from Popkin, he saw the tripe ,"--flying if not under complete control, being wobbly and irregular in flight". Well, --how much did Lt Fraser now about the 'new' art of flying? If l was down among the weeds, avoiding MG fire, and terrain, whilst chasing an erratic Camel--my flying also would be 'wobbly and irregular'.

What happened then?

We won't know. It is my conjecture that MvR turned about AFTER being fatally hit. My instinct would be to get out of there and get home--l'm fatally wounded and my basic survival instinct would be to leave the scene, get to my lines and get help. Why else would you fly BACK over hostile MG's?

The turn was under control, so l believe he had enough control as life ebbed from him to complete the turn, lose consciousness and crash ahead. How was he shot ? dunno---but l reckon seeing the seat and his body were intact, that a 'lucky/unlucky' bullet MAY HAVE found it's mark.

The RFC were very relieved to hear of his death---Mannock muttered about how he wished that he burnt all the way to his death---no love lost there!

And also strange, that MvR was given a full military funeral, where McCudden and Mannock (whereabouts unknown), were buried quickly and with out dignity.

The End--for me

dekenai

[Signals]

Why did MvR break off the fight and turn back over hostile MG posts?--(a biggie for me)

No one will ever know, some have suggested he had defective guns, short burst, jam, short burst jam, a possible reason for his frustrated chase of May. This could explain why he did not nail May ealier. My understanding was that when he gave up, he turned around, climbed, was struck, jerked the aircraft and came down. One chap who did the probing of the wound did say their was one matching hole in the cockpit area. So your right, one!

Maybe it was Snoopy.

[Gunner Bailey]

Hi Dekenai.

Nice summary and the information about the DR1 very useful. I think the next professional opinion we need is from someone with firearms / gunshot / medical experience to so at what velocity a .303 bullet will enter and just about exit a body. Clearly it was not going a full velocity when in struck MvR. The position of Popkin would need to be checked to the flight path and ranges for the shots checked to determine the probably velocity as the bullet reached MvR.

John

[dekenai]

G'day all,

Yes John, that is still a hard call.

Darren his guns were jamming and l reckon thats what may have confused the MGers--when they shot, MvR's guns also stopped suddenly (jam).

why did he turn? l'll stay with him being hit.

cheers all.

RDC

[digzkatz]

Hi all,a great mystery indeed!

Some one else has prob mentioned this, but, I did see a documentary on this 1-2 yrs ago.

They used CGI to display the scenarios that have been put forward. Using modern forensic techniques to examine each possible scenario, ie the ballistics, trench maps, recon photos, witness statements etc. All sorts of info right down to weather conditions, this made for fascinating veiwing.

Upshot was that the MOST PROBABLE cause was MG ground fire.

Can't remember which guy it was, but think it was the 2nd crew to open fire.

Cheers

Blair

[Mulvena]

Hi Folks,

The following has been extracted from the 31^st Battalion AIF War Diaries for all of you who have an interest in The Red Baron.

21^st April 1918 – Corbie Sector

Just before 11 a.m. a large German triplane was observed chasing a British Sopwith Camel, both flying at about 200 feet and following the course of the Somme. Enemy plane was firing all the way, thus preventing L.G. and M.Gs. from ground coming to bear. Eventually two A.A.L.Gs of 53^rd Battery, 14^th F.A. Brigade opened fire and the ‘plane staggered and crashed. The airman has been identified as Captain Baron Mannheim von Richthofen, the crack German airman. In the evening a flight of ten German ‘planes were over the lines, but did not remain long, being beaten off by A.A.M.G. fire.

Cheers,

Tony