Red Baron

[Signals]

Sorry,

forgot this one.

http://www.rcmi.org/museum/museum-collections.html

Sorry,

forgot this one.

http://www.rcmi.org/museum/museum-collections.html

[Desmond7]

I have closed this thread for a thorough examination of the tone of some postings.

There will be a decision SHORTLY.

Des

[Desmond7]

Members - as a result of posting which is blatantly not in keeping with the firm, fair but friendly nature of this forum (in this and other instances), 2ndCMR has been suspended for one month. The Admin team trust he will look to his own failings as the reason for this action.

Thank You.

[Guest]

Can I ask a silly question here???

If a man flying a plane such as the Red Baron's, is shot, and is either dead or dying, what does the plane do?

When the human is no longer in control, how far would the plane glide, or, would it dive??

So, I suppose what I am asking is, pilot gets shot at Point A, but plane crashes at Point B, after having sites x, y, and z shoot at him, recreations and modern fornesics relying on known records have suggested that Q happened. Is this not good enough?

Cheers

Kim

PS Ta Des.

[Gunner Bailey]

Can I ask a silly question here???

If a man flying a plane such as the Red Baron's, is shot, and is either dead or dying, what does the plane do?

When the human is no longer in control, how far would the plane glide, or, would it dive??

So, I suppose what I am asking is, pilot gets shot at Point A, but plane crashes at Point B, after having sites x, y, and z shoot at him, recreations and modern fornesics relying on known records have suggested that Q happened. Is this not good enough?

Cheers

Kim

PS Ta Des.

Kim

That's not a silly question. Pilots who are wounded normally have two basic reactions. If wounded and in pain the control stick is often jerked backwards making the plane climb steeply often leading to a stall (where the plane loses flying speed and basically starts to fall out of the sky). If the pilot has enough ability left, they may make the plane recover. The second reaction is for the pilot to lose consiousness often leading to the control stick being released and the plane will either fly in the direction it was last pointing (which in combat can be anywhere i.e into the ground or straight up) or it can even resume straight and level flight if the elevators are trimmed for S&L flight. In which case it could fly on until the fuel runs out (as in the crash of the flight golfer Payne Stewart was on).

In the case of the Red Baron I believe there was a brief jerky climb followed by a controlled crash landing as the plane was already at quite low level. This would indicate VR felt the shock of the hit, tried to land, losing consiousness probably just after the landing. It would have been a remarkable piece of flying for a fatally wounded man.

John

[Southside Bucky]

Sgt. Gavin Darbyshire, of the 9th Engineers was repairing pontoon bridges near Vaux-Sur-Somme on the morning of 21st April 1918. Here's a section of his description of MvR's last moments:

"...I then turned to look at the two leading planes (Lt. May & MvR) just going over the ridge, (I) heard a burst of gunfire and the Fokker stopped in its stride and did the first half of the loop then straightened out and fluttered down out of our sight as if doing a pancake landing...

Regards.

Bucky

[David B]

John,

Would not have Payne Stewarts been on auto pilot and only crashed when as you say the fuel ran out. Regarding WW1

aircraft I have the feeling they did not have trim tabs so once the pilot lost consciousness the plane would have been out of

control, either up and stalling or down into ground, either way curtains

David

[Signals]

In the case of the Red Baron I believe there was a brief jerky climb followed by a controlled crash landing as the plane was already at quite low level. This would indicate VR felt the shock of the hit, tried to land, losing consiousness probably just after the landing. It would have been a remarkable piece of flying for a fatally wounded man.

Hi John, this is pretty much my understanding, so agree with you on this. I have read two different accounts of men who said they saw the Baron come down, one says the aircraft came down and on touching flipped upside down, but another that said it was upright, the only damage being a bent undercarriage and damaged prop. I did read, but need it confirmed by someone, that after he was hit, he was seen to jerk the aircraft as if pulling back on the stick, then turned his fuel off and glided his triplane down with the last of his strength. On landing his jaw hit his guns, but he was still alive. A British witness who stated years later that he was the first to the aircraft said he mumbled something before dying. So once must conclude this is when he received the fatal shot, he came down, someone got a single lucky shot into him from the ground and we will never know who for sure.

Although the aircraft was pulled to pieces, you'll notice one chap who carried out a medical examination said there was a bullet hole in the cockpit area that was in line with the hit on the Baron. No one really mentions any other hits. The remaining photos don't reveal anything as they had done a great job ripping the aircraft apart.

Also have read, but would like it confirmed, that they found his guns were defective, and could only get off a couple of rounds before jamming. One of the main reason he could not nail May.

Cheers DB.

[Guest]

Ta Gunner for the explanation.

Cheers

Kim

[dekenai]

Also Kim,

Hart's book "Aces Falling" gives first hand accounts of pilots being hit, losing consciousness , regaining flight, others just slumping over the controls obviously dead. It is a good read and helps the non pilot understand perfectly how the air war was fought, and how the pilots did fly, and die--l sound like Hart's literary agent!

cheers

dekenai

at least a horse will get you home----

[Jasta72s]

Bucky,

I thought this to be well-known because the information comes from Bruno J Schmaeling, one of the old guard of Germany´s private researchers of WWI aviation, who did interview General a. D. Karl August von Schoenebeck (and others). Schoenebeck served with Jasta 11 from 02.(07.?)07.1917 to 26.01.1918 and

"bezifferte die Anzahl der Luftsiege, die Manfred von Richthofen in dieser Zeit an andere Flugzeugführer vergab, auf etwa zehn!"

Source: "Vor 100 Jahren geboren: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen", published in Jet & Prop 3/1992, p. 45-53.

By the way terms like "Baron", "Roter Baron" and "Roter Ritter" were not know to Jasta 11. The term "Roter Kampfflieger" - coined by the book - rarely used after is´s publication.

[ian turner]

I understood that the fatal bullet had severed the aorta, and in that case the blood loss would have resulted in swift unconsciousness before death. How much was it a 'controlled' landing rather than a chance result from his dying at the controls?

[Guest]

OK Richard, as one who has and does, what are your thoughts on the possibilties put forth?

BTW, Of course a horse would get you home!!!! It got Nugget home.

Cheers

Kim

Yeh, yeh, I know, I owe you a red for this.

[Southside Bucky]

..."bezifferte die Anzahl der Luftsiege, die Manfred von Richthofen in dieser Zeit an andere Flugzeugführer vergab, auf etwa zehn!"

Source: "Vor 100 Jahren geboren: Manfred Freiherr von Richthofen", published in Jet & Prop 3/1992, p. 45-53.

TRANSLATION: "The number of air victories, which Manfred von Richthofen assigned in this time to other pilots, are approximately ten!"

Hello again, Jasta72s.

I think that sentence might be given more credence if it had been backed up by even a single example or instance of such an event taking place.

Thanks for bringing it to my attention though. I think I'll have to delve a bit deeper into this particular aspect of the MvR story...

All the best.

Bucky

[Gunner Bailey]

I understood that the fatal bullet had severed the aorta, and in that case the blood loss would have resulted in swift unconsciousness before death. How much was it a 'controlled' landing rather than a chance result from his dying at the controls?

Ian

There was no detailed post mortum examination so that is speculation. Certainly the wound was in the region of the heart and but the detail of the internal injury is unknown.

John

[Gunner Bailey]

John,

Would not have Payne Stewarts been on auto pilot and only crashed when as you say the fuel ran out. Regarding WW1

aircraft I have the feeling they did not have trim tabs so once the pilot lost consciousness the plane would have been out of

control, either up and stalling or down into ground, either way curtains

David

David

Regarding Payne Stewart's aircraft I don't know. It carried out a climb from take off that exceeded the planned height and did not stay on the flight plan, so it's not clear to me if auto pilot was engaged.

Trim tabs have existed from the early days of aviation. In those days trimming and aircraft was a matter of bending a metal plate attached to the wing or tail. Some home built aircraft still use this method. Most pilots would have their aircraft trimmed so they could fly 'hands off' so that they could read maps, change Lewis gun drums etc. Not as good as modern trimming but still trimmed. Trimming is something pilots feel through the controls. Is the stick to heavy? Does the aircraft naturally fly straight and level on it's own? Nowadays a pilot will turn the trip wheel or push a trim button. In WW1 the pilot would tell the airframe fitter to trim for whatever correction was needed.

John

[ian turner]

Ian

There was no detailed post mortum examination so that is speculation. Certainly the wound was in the region of the heart and but the detail of the internal injury is unknown.

John

OK, cannot quote the book but...

I recall that there was a fairly prompt post mortem held in the tent where his body was initially kept. It indeed ascertained that the passage of the bullet (under arm entry, under the opposite nipple exit) would have severed the aorta. That said I am sure it was not of the phorensic standard that we see today, but it was carried out wth medical competance.

All this is from my memory, the book was a detailed analysis of MvR's last days and his last flight, including who may have fired the fatal round, the insistance of the RAF in claiming the victory and Brown's muted acquiesence.

I'm sorry this is not an academic debate on my side - I read the book quite some years ago!

Ian

[David B]

John,

I was thinking of moveable - by the pilot trimtabs. Looking at photos early aircraft did not appear to have them, however

I bow to you statement that trim tabs were fitted and used by your stated method.

David

[Capt_Starlight]

Trim tabs have existed from the early days of aviation. In those days trimming and aircraft was a matter of bending a metal plate attached to the wing or tail. Some home built aircraft still use this method. Most pilots would have their aircraft trimmed so they could fly 'hands off' so that they could read maps, change Lewis gun drums etc. Not as good as modern trimming but still trimmed. Trimming is something pilots feel through the controls. Is the stick to heavy? Does the aircraft naturally fly straight and level on it's own? Nowadays a pilot will turn the trip wheel or push a trim button. In WW1 the pilot would tell the airframe fitter to trim for whatever correction was needed.

Not many aircraft were fitted with trim tabs. Most used horn balanced control surfaces (to balance the load aerodynamically by having a small part of the surface in the opposite condition to the main surface area), or spring balanced (using springs to achieve the same effect). Some aircraft were fitted with an adjustable tailplane whereby the whole angle of incidence of either vertical (fairly rare) or horizontal (particularly common on Sopwith aircraft for instance though dispensed with by 1918 manufacture) surfaces.

During testing of a newly assembled or repaired aircraft it was common to use dope to adjust the control surfaces ("an extra layer on the port aileron Ginger" ) particularly once rigging wires had disappeared (and before all metal control surfaces can into vogue).

The Dr1 for instance had no trim tabs, used aerodynamic ("horn balanced") surfaces (lower ailerons unbalanced but may have been interconnected by wire with upper ones). Did not have adjustable tailplane AFAIK.

OK, cannot quote the book but...

I recall that there was a fairly prompt post mortem held in the tent where his body was initially kept. It indeed ascertained that the passage of the bullet (under arm entry, under the opposite nipple exit) would have severed the aorta. That said I am sure it was not of the phorensic standard that we see today, but it was carried out wth medical competance.

Read Geoffrey Miller's report mentioned earlier in the thread for the papers concerning the post-mortems (two) carried out and how sophisticated they were not.

[Signals]

Just for interest.

Good models, not sure how accurate. Those boots are in the AWM that are being taken off here, see second link.

http://onesixthnet.yuku.com/reply/66238/t/...en-s-crash.html

http://www.redbattleflyer.com/MvRdeath.htm

[Gunner Bailey]

OK, cannot quote the book but...

I recall that there was a fairly prompt post mortem held in the tent where his body was initially kept. It indeed ascertained that the passage of the bullet (under arm entry, under the opposite nipple exit) would have severed the aorta. That said I am sure it was not of the phorensic standard that we see today, but it was carried out wth medical competance.

Ian

Ian

The evidence seems to show that the PMs were basic external examinations just showing death by a single bullet wound and noting some minor facial injuries. There was some probing of the wound but the assumption that the heart was hit was based upon the position of the entry and exit wounds and possibly (my assumption) the amount of blood on the pilots clothing. There was no detailed examination. If someone wrote that the aorta was cut, it was a guess.

I would also add that the fact the bullet was found in the uniform by the exit hole may indicate a shot at quite long range. If the Australian MG crew were closest I would have expected a higher velocity impact. New point to discuss?

John

[ian turner]

It certainly didn't do him any good! Re the bullet - wasn't one of the bullets which hit President Kennedy found on the stretcher (if not him then the chap in the front seat who was also hit)?

In MvR's case, did the bullet pass through the fuselage first then his flying suit and body? Was the range from either Brown or the ground fire similar?

Ian

[Gunner Bailey]

It certainly didn't do him any good! Re the bullet - wasn't one of the bullets which hit President Kennedy found on the stretcher (if not him then the chap in the front seat who was also hit)?

In MvR's case, did the bullet pass through the fuselage first then his flying suit and body? Was the range from either Brown or the ground fire similar?

Ian

Ian - Yes a bullet was found on a stretcher at the hospital in Dallas. A book I have implies this was planted as the bullet plus the weight of bullet fragments found in Kennedy's body did not add up to the correct weight for it to be the bullet that passed through Kennedy's neck. Govenor Connelly was hit by a bullet that exited his chest, i.e would have ended up in the car.

Regarding MvR, the bullet would have met no resistence passing through the fuselage fabric. As the aircraft was at approx 150 - 200 feet high and passing close to the Australian troops on the ground I would have expected the range from the MG on the ground to be well under 1000 yards. At that range it would have been going at full speed, yet it clearly just exited the body as was stopped by the flying suit, indicating that it may have been fired from more that 2000 yards away. I'm not sure if this point has been reviewed by experts yet (if not you heard it here first).

This could indicate that MvR was hit by a bullet that could have been fired from quite long range which could bring in many other units beyond the Australians.

John

[ian turner]

Interesting point, but thinking about it - whatever the bullet passed through internally, it led to his fairly swift death.

Thus he was likely hit when at low level, and thus surely not a target for a gun over 1 mile away, where the gunner risked hitting his own troops due to the low level of the rapidly moving target? At 2000 yards the bullet would be on a downward parabola, plunging more than rising? Not consistent with the relative angle of his wound.

I've no ready explantion/speculation on the inconsistency of the various facts, other than bullets can do strange things.

Ian

[Gunner Bailey]

One aspect would be that a WW1 biplane viewed from a mile away would seem to be moving quite slowly perhaps tempting many riflemen to have a pop? It takes just seconds to raise a backsight for maximum range and yes the bullet would be on a curved path but it could be a sighted path.

John