Guest tafski Posted 8 April , 2009 Share Posted 8 April , 2009 see john reeds post in current battlefield archeology tafski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stiletto_33853 Posted 8 April , 2009 Share Posted 8 April , 2009 John, Thank you for posting this and hopefully putting peoples mind at rest. I hope that Frans will visit and let people know any further news regarding the Diggers. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 12 April , 2009 Share Posted 12 April , 2009 I am sure you are not in possesion of the facts or the brief to divalge them Tafski so have no fear. Egbert was talking generally which i guess you did not pick up on. Roland as Bruce has said it was a private visit, now for your information he is a very close friend of Frans and his family,and what ever was discussed has nothing to do with you or anyone else,so when someone demands to know something as Egbert quite clearly stated, "something I quiet clearly picked up on" I personally think is a bloody liberty. And while where at it, don't you think Frans and his family have had more than enough on their plate recently, than to worry about what's being said on this or any other forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krussell Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 & finally,Esther... sausages How intelligent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetius Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Having just returned from Belgium I asked the question of a friend of mine who is one of the government archaeologists. The reason for the quiet may well be the fact that having been found guilty in a court of law 'De Diggers' are unable to continue, certainly until the duration of their suspended sentences has elapsed. I was also gratified to learn that the Government there is now taking a far harder line on anyone who transgresses the rules. This apparently is in attempt to protect the battlefields and remains that still lay there. Having discussed this at length I gleaned this does not stop development or indeed investigation but just regulates it, ensuring that only those qualified are able to dig. This also includes developers who now have to pay for full excavation prior to building, again protecting that which we hold as scared ground. This does not prevent archaeology, as several threads I have read on this forum indicate. Indeed It was said that with the correct justification and qualified people in place authority although strictly controlled is still possible to obtain and will remain so. Having talked this through with people who know about battlefield archaeology, and conduct it daily, in the area, I came away feeling that the government there are doing something to protect and preserve a most important area. I understand that some will be put out by the fact that the diggers have been curtailed but the impression I got was that the professional community there are not put out by their conviction and indeed welcome the legislation that puts in place restrictions to ensure that both the locations, artifacts and human remains are treated as they rightly deserve. Is it not time now to start looking to some of the other groups that are conducting regular, formal, battlefield archaeology, and to such a high standard that it appears that they are achieving a tremendous amount and are actually being applauded by the regulatory bodies as an example of how to do it? Surely these people (who appear somewhat shy) might be encouraged to say more and let us know what's going on (I understand that this is after the event for justified security reasons). I hope that these new groups and the new legislation will herald a new era of professional archaeology using the latest techniques and remove the shadow of 19th Century weekend digging parties. Vegetius SPQR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hudsonswhistle Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Is it not time now to start looking to some of the other groups that are conducting regular, formal, battlefield archaeology, and to such a high standard that it appears that they are achieving a tremendous amount and are actually being applauded by the regulatory bodies as an example of how to do it? Surely these people (who appear somewhat shy) might be encouraged to say more and let us know what's going on (I understand that this is after the event for justified security reasons). I hope that these new groups and the new legislation will herald a new era of professional archaeology using the latest techniques and remove the shadow of 19th Century weekend digging parties. Vegetius SPQR Oh dear i think your about to get slated Vegetius , hold on to your hat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 The reason for the quiet may well be the fact that having been found guilty in a court of law 'De Diggers' are unable to continue, certainly until the duration of their suspended sentences has elapsed. Ah. That's some new information, isn't it? From reading the post that John Reed made on the other thread, I had assumed that the Diggers had had to stop simply because a change in the law meant they had to. Are you saying, in fact, they had been prosecuted and convicted of breaking an aspect of Belgian law? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetius Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Ah well, I have related what I have been told, by more than one source, and therefore believe that I have not been led astray. The most important thing is to preserve the archaeology and to do right by the soldiers after all! Vegetius SPQR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Ah well, I have related what I have been told, by more than one source, and therefore believe that I have not been led astray. The most important thing is to preserve the archaeology and to do right by the soldiers after all! Vegetius SPQR Sorry, but the important thing now is surely to substantiate the new information John refers to, (your claim that the Diggers have been tried in a court of law and found guilty, and the Diggers being under a suspended sentence). Can you tell us more about these matters? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Ah well, I have related what I have been told, by more than one source, and therefore believe that I have not been led astray. The most important thing is to preserve the archaeology and to do right by the soldiers after all! Yes. But it is also important that you do not defame individual members of the Diggers (at least one of whom is a member here). If you have hard information that they have been convicted of an offence, that is one thing. If you are only relating gossip, that is entirely another thing and you should remove the comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tafski Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Convictions???? Sentanced ???? think this vegetable needs to be mindfull of what he is saying tafski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garron Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Care to name these sources? As right now it sounds like man in a pub syndrome to me. ' A guy said this' 'a guy said that'. If being at Uni has showed me anything you have to give sources otherwise its well worthless. 19th Century weekend digging parties Is that deliberatly trying to annoy people? Ok they may not use Geo-phys or radar based technology, but the job still gets done and soldiers are found and giving a proper burial. The Belgian bomb disposal quota has dropped since they have stopped working meaning more nasties still around. Gaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 If I understand this article from today's edition of De Morgen correctly, court proceedings against De Diggers are still in progress. Could one of our Dutch speakers please assist. http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/989/Binnenlan...opgraving.dhtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 S.G. This is not today's edition, but from 13 Oct 2008. Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Before the debate becomes too feverish here are three articles from Belgian newspapers - one at the commencement of the case and two at its conclusion. They confirm exactly what we have been told previously. [edit: by Roel above] The Judge reluctantly found the Diggers guilty of a technical offence of excavating without a licence/ permit and in recognition of the technicality of the breach simply suspended any sentence for a period of three years. The British equivalent of a conditional discharge. Please forgive the Babelfish for it does not knoweth what it does : http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/989/Binnenlan...opgraving.dhtml Vzw the Diggers stand trial for illegal unearthing On the court of Ieper the process verdergezet is where vzw the Diggers and their President Patrick must justify themselves Van Wanzeele for illegal digging up ammunition. Maintaining asks the acquittal and indicates on the interest of the association at digging up ammunition on places where bldg. are accelerated. The Diggers, amateur archeologists who obtain already some decades in the West angle war ammunition from the ground, are continued because they were in 2006, in Boezinge, without valid license, unearthings for doing. Also they, according to a complainant, to British tourists will have sold dug up objects. Only dug-out drained The vzw denies the charges. Everything that is found, goes to in Flanders the Fieldsmuseum in Ieper, thus the Council man of the vzw. Moreover we have obtained nothing in Boezinge from the ground. We have not drained only one dug-out which full water stood, more. Reference to agreement with city Ieper, that activities of Diggers must to regulate, is according to Public Prosecution Service not of phone between 2000 and 2006 the association did be work under supervision of the Flemish institute for moving heritage (VIOE). After 2006 the VIOE had been no longer entitled provide the licenses. Enormous danger A lot companies appeal however to the Diggers the place where one wants build to let follow on war ammunition. The vzw would not probably do that work, then there an enormous danger dominates, thus the lawyer of the Diggers. The sentence follows on 10 November. (belga/ka) http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail.asp...ikelId=RN22Q38L 13/10/08 12.57 Illegal diggers does not punish • Wednesday 12 November 2008 • • Author: Yves Delepeleire Except ammunition the Diggers also frequently bump on other remainders from the first world war, like here in a field in the buurt of Ieper. , The President, shows to Patrick Van Wanzeele one pot, two shovels and a diagrid where pivot wire to strained wer IEPER - the Diggers, a group amateur archaeologists from West-Vlaanderen, got suspension of sentence for illegal digging up ammunition from the first world war. Of our editor The complete lawsuit testifies of cowardice and hypocrisy. Everyone forgets that we the enigen are who in the West angle still dig up ammunition dare. If we can no longer do, which then will answer for the security of people? Patrick Van Wanzeele, wonder themselves foreman of the vzw the Diggers, when he Monday the court of Ieper buitenwandelt. Van Wanzeele there, just like its vzw, for the correctional judge appear because he of it accused illegally ammunition from the first world war to have to be dug up in an industry area in Boezinge, two years had suffered. The judge considered the facts proved, but gave to the Diggers the grace of suspension of punish. This means that them a guilty, but clean police record has been preserved. The judge showed sympathy for the Diggers, because them according to him raise the security by clearring old war ammunition. Moreover he considered the onbewezen that them financial advantage obtained from unearthings by selling tourists to valuable matter to Britste, such as a complainant had claimed. If the vzw commits again indictable offences within the three years, and Van Wanzeele in person within the year, then the judge can condemn them nevertheless still. The Diggers to be possible their work continue provided that they request a license for each unearthing as of now at the Flemish administration. That license is necessary because by an adaptation of the heritage decree war ammunition also under the Flemish patrimony falls. We want that, however, do, react Van Wanzeele. But we fear that our functioning is hampered as a result. It lasts months for we a license get. Moreover always applies that but to one plot. That is not workable. Additional problem is that only graduate archaeologists can the stuff dig up, whereas the Diggers are all amateurs. The Diggers to be for years active in the industry area in Boezinge. Companies which want build there, contact us itself to explore out the area firstly, say Van Wanzeele. In spring still we found 40 springtuigen on one yard, and on another yard 17. By the complete lawsuit we sit now what at the back. Companies which want wait not for our because them that money, take as a result, himself costs large dangers Recently I stopped still an employee who on a yard with a lime-spreader drove. If he had bumped on a bomb, he air had been perhaps tested-fly. It is a wonder that there victims still no have fallen. If we must stop with to dig up because we cannot attain fast to a license, then still deads will fall. Graduate archaeologists looked at with argusogen from to in this case. For years they live on strained foot with the amateur archaeologists of the vzw the Diggers, who are already meermaals labelled as lijkenpikkers. They would collect valuable objects and archaeological tracks to destroy, without registering everything closely. Van Wanzeele denies that. If we find valuable matter, we keep at where we have done those finds and give we that to in Flanders the Fields museum. If we material rests of casualty find soldiers, we let us follow strict procedures. The past years found the Diggers on the old battle fields of Boezinge the material rests of 216 casualty soldiers. But that is not our aim, says Van Wanzeele. , however, clearring ammunition. There still barrels gasbommen in the floor sit. They can not only explode, but leak also. People who build a house above a booming field, get assuredly cancer. What we do, are important for our security. The Diggers at the agency spatial scheduling want request now a license for the complete Ieperse area. But that is in principle impossible. http://www.nieuwsblad.be/Article/Detail.as...icleid=UP22Q867 Judge shows sympathy but must Diggers condemn IEPER - I have sympathy for your work, but I am not possible outside the law and must you condemn, said the judge in Ieper to Patrick Van Wanzeele. Those stood trial, with vzw the Diggers, for the implementation of archaeological unearthings. The judge gave both the Diggers and its President suspension of sentence to the vzw during three years. Are fundamental you guilty, because you can do no unearthings for that having a license. Of the charge that the Diggers would sell dug up material from the first world war to British tourists, they, for lack of proofs, were clearred. The Diggers to do already a lot of years unearthings where them are to it there do haul up ammunition. Since 1989 they have got town governing board annually for that of the Ieperse a license. Those all were extended those years. In 2006, there a new decree came. There is as of now for each archaeological unearthing a license requires, distributed by the Flemish government. We did not know this and also the town governing board of Ieper and does not have our thus had not been informed, Patrick say Van Wanzeele. If we every time on a license must wait, still much heavy misfortunes will happen. Now we examine, each time someone somewhere wants build will, the area on ammunition. Thus we found on one of the yards no less than forty springtuigen. Now we know that we must a license, also requested we that for unearthings on tWielke in Ieper, where an residential area comes. The application is already months within. We still wait for an answer, say Patrick Van Wanzeele. The Diggers to zoeken with a metal auscultator which can localise metal up to on two meters depth. For the realisation of the last phase of the northern industry area between Ieper and Boezinge, the Diggers seven obtained barrels ammunition above of which half poison gas. It is for that so-called illegal unearthing that we for the court had appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 This is not today's edition, but from 13 Oct 2008. Thanks, Aurel. I was deceived by the fact that today's date appears at the head of the web-page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Thanks Melpack, that has made things much clearer --------------- Not Regards Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Norman How very dare you? Blame the messenger and not the babblefish! Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seadog Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 A thousand apploogiys Melpack I have reading the post again and too understanding much is clear, in the particulars the followings := Quote 1.0 The Diggers to zoeken with a metal auscultator 2.0 There still barrels gasbommen in the floor sit 3.0 People who build a house above a booming field, get assuredly cancer 4.0 Graduate archaeologists looked at with argusogen from to in this case. For years they live on strained foot 5.0 Everyone forgets that we the enigen are who in the West angle still dig up ammunition dare. Bestings wishes Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 Speculation combined with a possible legal case is not good. Sorry folks, I have to close this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frans Posted 13 April , 2009 Share Posted 13 April , 2009 After having received a couple of telephone calls tonight I think I better give a reply regarding how the situation is at the moment. Regarding the court case. The judgement was that we were not convicted and a repreave of any sentence. The judge was very sympathetic towards the group but we would have to apply through the proper channels in future for the neccessary licences. Before this we operated with a permanent licence from the town hall of Ieper. Due to changes in the law in 2006 the town hall was not aware that this licence was not legal. Which is in theary not a problem for the diggers as we assumed the town hall knew what they were doing. The reason why there are not photo's is simple we are not doing any work at the moment. We have applied for licences but have had none given. Are we happy with the situation. No were are not. We have turned back the clock, and tactics from the old days are returning when building sites are prepared. Piet Chielens is quoted in Het Laatste nieuws a Belgian newspaper, that remains have disappeared. The number of soldiers recovered has gone down to zero. Buildings are being build on ammunition. While everybody seems focussed on the Diggers, I would say focus your attention to what is really happening, and that is nothing. We were the only group that would systamaticly clean building sites and remove the iron and take the time if remains were found that they were removed in a proper fashion and relocated to a cemetery. There is absolutely no budget for these activities and therefore it looks very sad at the moment that nobody really cares and every thing has come to a standstill. The only acheavement is that the group who were the only ones in the Ieper area who took the time and effort to at least try and do something has been stopped and looks like this will stay this way for the forseable future. regards, Frans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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