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1/5 Lancs Hvy Bty RGA


aejones
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Hi

I have an Edwin Kitching serving in 1/5 Lancs Hvy Bty RGA. I assume I read this as the 1st brigade, 5th battalion, Lancashire Heavy Battery RGA?

I thought I had the 1/5 lancs Hvy Bty RGA in the 55th Division but now I'm not so sure.

Does anyone know what the history is of the 1/5 lancs RGA, or what division it was in?

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers Alan

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The 55th Divisional History by Rev J.O. Coop lists only the following RFA Brigades as Divisional troops: 275, 276, 277. The last of these became Army troops in 1917.

I think you will find that Heavy Batteries were Corps or Army troops, but I am sure a better-informed pal will have the details.

D

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His SDGW entry reads "Lancashire Heavy Brigade (RGA - (TF))

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On his MIC its states 1/5 lancs Hvy Bty RGA, on CWGC it just has Royal Garrison Artillery.

Is one of them wrong, or are they both right? I'm trying to find what he did and where he went, so until I manage to crack this problem I'm a little stuck.

Thanks, Alan

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Alan

Without looking at the MIC, either you have misread it or the notation is wrong -it should be 1/2.

Regards

Mel

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Alan

There were only two W.Lancs Heavy B'trys - 1/2 & 2/2.

When they were renumbered they were allocated the six figure block of 308001-310000.

If you go through the MICs on Ancestry and simply put in Royal Garrison Artillery and in the number box 308* or 309* or 310*, you will be able to construct a virtual nominal roll for the two batteries.

regards

Mel

Ps the MIC clerk had clearly been on the bottle that lunchtime.

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Thanks Mel,

So if he was in the W Lancs, then he'd be in the 55th division, is that correct?

Is there anything else I can glean from his reg number 308552 or the 1/2 Lancs Hvy Bty?

Cheers, Alan

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Hi,

I came across this from a previous post:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Hi Llew,

the 1/2nd Lancashire Heavy Bty (TF) RGA was part of the 42nd (East Lancs) Division but left prior to the division sailing for Gallipoli. The battery landed in France on 9th February 1916 and became part of XI Heavy Bde RGA on 15th February 1916. I'm sure the artillery experts will tell you more,

cheers, Jon ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So is this the same as the one I've been looking for?

My knowledge in this area is not great, so I apologise if my questions seem obvious.

Alan

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Alan

This site: http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/si.../42_div.htm#rga confirms the information that you have cited (it may even have sourced it).

The real problem with the RGA is when its units ceased to have any Divisional tie and became part of HAGs (and later Brigades) with constant shifts.

It really needs an expert artillery buff to provide a narrative.

Reagrds

Mel

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Hi,

On checking the NA, I've just noticed he has 2 MICs, the second is for the MM. The corps is 1/1st (Lanc) Hvy Bty RGA (TF), so it would appear that the other MIC should read 1/1 and not 1/5.

Mel - the problem I now have is that you said there were only two btys, 1/2 and 2/2.

Any ideas?

Cheers, Alan

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Alan

The designation is not always consistent. The 1st Hvy Bty can be referred to as the 1st, 1/1 or 1/2 at differing stages of the war.

This is its official designation pre-war (thanks to graham stewart)

post-859-1234465982.jpg

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I would say there is a higher chance that he went out with 1/1 Lancs. Heavy Battery. I believe they left Southampton on the 21-1-1916 and arrived Le Havre on the 26-1-1916, and would not therefore qualify for the 14/15 Star. I would also say there is a good chance that he was a pre war TF gunner probably joining early 1913, although one would have to do a lot more research before knowing exactly when he joined and his original 4 digit number. The medal rolls are the first place to look.

Kevin

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Mel - Upper Warwick St was close by, so the 1st Lancs makes a lot of sense.

As an fyi, on the back of the MIC it states that his wife applied for his MM, and 1914/15 star. I don't know whether she ever received it.

Kevin - how do I search the medal rolls, does that require a visit to the NA at Kew?

Thanks for your help, much appreciated.

Alan

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Quote, "how do I search the medal rolls, does that require a visit to the NA at Kew?"

Yes, unless someone sees this and has a copy. If you can definately identify the unit you may then be able to see any war dairy that may have survived.

Kevin

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Hi Alan. If it helps 1/1 Lancs Heavy Battery and 1/2 were from Liverpool. I have my Grandfather's Unit Diary, 84 Heavy Artillery group which shows the 1/1 Lancs posted into the Group on 21st March 1917 at Bouvigny Wood. This area is North of Arras near Ablain St. Nazaire and

souchez. This was in preparation for 'Vimy Ridge, in support of the Canadians On the 14th April they are in position at the Sugar Factory at Souchez.

lotsw been written about this Battle and the area. As has already been mentioned Seige and heavy Batteries of the R.G.A. were moved around Groups until around 1918 when they were known as Brigades. At the armistice 1/1 Lancs Heavy was shown 48 Heavy Brigade R.G.A. 1st Army hope this helps a little.

Tony Paley

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Hi Tony,

Thanks - that's really helpful.

The soldier i'm interested in (E V kitching ) was awarded his MM in Aug 1917, so I assumed the event must have happended a few months earlier - I expect the bureaucracy in those days meant an award took some time to be formally issued and filter through the system. At least I can now put him at a place and time prior to his MM award.

He died in Oct 1918 in the UK, so I imagine he was injured at some point and was sent home to recover but died. I need to confrim this, so my next step is to obtain his death certificate. He is listed on the CWGC so he must have still been in the army. The folks on the L'pool and SW lancs genealogy forum have been helping me with that aspect of my research.

Cheers, Alan

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Alan,

1/1 Lancs Hvy Bty RGA, as Kevin said went out to the Western front 26-1-1916. There is no surviving war diary of their time in France. Just be aware that the diary at Kew ref WO95/543 is only a home based training and preparation record up until orders dated 20-12-1915 instructing the battery to move to Woolwich from Thanington Camp for mobilization for France. (it had previously moved down from Liverpool through a series of route marches). It will not tell you anything concerning his MM. An advance party of 1 Officer and 20 OR’s did so on the 27-12-1915, and 5 Officers and 182 men, 4 guns and limbers, 20 GS wagons, 1 water cart and 142 horses followed the next day in two trains to Carlton Park.

Therefore your only hope re the MM citation are the higher formation HAG diaries they were part of and the most obvious one for an award gazetted in Aug 1917 is that of 98 Brigade. 1/1 Lancs joined this group 28-5-17 and left 4-9-17. This can be found at NA reference WO95/482. They had already left the 84 HAG in 15/5/1917, so I am assuming it was not mentioned in that diary or Tony would have said so, but would not really expect it to have been. They then joined 15 HAG for 13 days until joining the 98th on the date I mentioned above. If there is any record of it at all I would expect to find it in there, with the 15 HAG diary as a second option. Be careful of ordering the correct medal roll as there are two for 104B TF RGA; you require NA ref WO329/315 p327 (8 pages in from the back)

Rgds Paul

PS Make sure you pre order it in advance or you risk it being unavailable on the day.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just in case anyone is thinking of creating a 'nominal roll' for the Lancashire Heavy Batteries.....

I'm part way through the job (been doing it for ages)

I have searched the NA MIC list for all 308nnn and 309nnn numbers in the RGA and have the full list. I am now pulling up the MICs from Ancestry.

If anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet they just need to send me an email.

A couple of health warnings:-

using this method means there are gaps for men who were allocated a service number and didn't go overseas, but it also has the benefit of pulling up some SWB entries for men prior to the TA renumbering in 1917.

The list is curently very light on Officers

regards

Mike

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  • 5 months later...
Just in case anyone is thinking of creating a 'nominal roll' for the Lancashire Heavy Batteries.....

I'm part way through the job (been doing it for ages)

I have searched the NA MIC list for all 308nnn and 309nnn numbers in the RGA and have the full list. I am now pulling up the MICs from Ancestry.

If anyone wants a copy of the spreadsheet they just need to send me an email.

A couple of health warnings:-

using this method means there are gaps for men who were allocated a service number and didn't go overseas, but it also has the benefit of pulling up some SWB entries for men prior to the TA renumbering in 1917.

The list is curently very light on Officers

regards

Mike

Mike

Is this any help

1918 November 30 – Richard Shrive (Major) 76 Brigade RGA and 91ST Siege Battery

RGA Brigade Attached to this higher formation, at November 1918 Consisted of these Batteries

76 Fourth Army 19, 91, 113, 132, 228, 233

17 Third Army 13, 51, 56, 135, 248, 2/1 Lancs

21 Fourth Army 24, 71, 354, 1/2 Lancs

1919 April 2 - Richard Shrive (Major) posted 2-1 Lancs(H) Bty RGA [ Army Service Record]

See November 1918 list of Royal Garrison Artillery Formations where 2-1 Lancs (Ramsgate) is listed.

RGA Brigade Attached to this higher formation, at 30 November 1918 Consisted of these Batteries

76 Fourth Army 19, 91, 113#_msocom_1 , 132, 228, 233

17 Third Army 13, 51, 56, 135, 248, 2/1 Lancs

21 Fourth Army 24, 71, 354, 1/2 Lancs

RGA Brigades: a formation of a number of heavy batteries. In common with their RFA counterparts, the heavy batteries were gradually pulled from Divisional to Corps level command, and by the late stages of the war were usually Army Troops. Brigades and Batteries were often clustered into Heavy Artillery Groups.

1919 April 4 - Richard Shrive (Major) posted 13th siege Bty France & Rhine Army

Now that is what I call a short service. Can you shed any light on what might be happening?

Mike Reeve

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  • 5 weeks later...

Mike,

Firstly apologies for the delayed response, I have no idea where September has gone.

Secondly, thanks for the info, which will be of use, however I'm in the information gathering stage at the moment and don't have any info on post war activities as of yet, so I'm not sure what to make of such a short service.

I do know however that a lot of the men were being discharged as early as February 1919.

Not sure it helps........

kind regards

Mike

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