Royal Navy Service Record - help understanding and tracing ships

[danikaashley]

Hi Guys,

I've been lucky enough to get hold of my GreatGrandads WW1 Service Record, but am having trouble understanding bits of it.

What do the 'list' and 'no.' columns mean?? I also can't make out what it says in the discharged column and the remarks column therefore don't know what it means but hopefully one of you guys who know your stuff will know what it is

What are the letters before his number? do they have any significance?

I have details of the terrible goings on during his first stay at Pembroke I but would love to be able to find out where the ships were and what they were doing at the time he was on them. Is there any way I could find this out? Also I think his record says he was on HMS Europa I & II is one of these a base or are they ships?

Any help at all would be very greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much

Danika

[per ardua per mare per terram]

List and no. = which list he was on in the ships books and his number on that list (search the forum for explanations). He went ashore on demobilisation. It was traced that he was eligable for a War Gratuity and was Paid his War Gratuity(search the forum for explanations).

J before his number would mean that he was in the seamen and communications branch.

Pembroke was the barracks at Chatham.

Pictures of HMS St George http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/edga...S%20St%20George

1917 Submarine depot ship Aegean. http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/armoured-cruiser/hms-edgar.html

Pictures of His Majesty's Ship Europa http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/diad...tm#HMS%20Europa She served in the Aegean. I don't have my book on Shore establishments of the RN to hand, so can't look up Europa II.

Pictures of HMS Caesar http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_caesar.htm In the brackets after it looks like h5 which would mean her served on submarine H5 with Caesar acting as the depot ship. According to the above site she was in the Black Sea in 1919.

Where a ship was at any time was recorded in the navigational logs. These can be searched by the name and date on the UK National Archives catalogue.

[Toms girl]

Hello Danika

HMS Pembroke is a landbase situated in The Royal Docks at Chatham, sadly now not used

by the navy.

St George was a depot ship which my granddfather also served on.

If you google Royal Docks at Chatham you can see some interesting buildingd together with info

on when and what it was used for.

regards Margarette

[Toms girl]

Hi Per Ardua

You beat me by four minutes. Nice to hear from you.

Always the source of so much info.

Regards Margarette

[danikaashley]

List and no. = which list he was on in the ships books and his number on that list (search the forum for explanations). He went ashore on demobilisation. It was traced that he was eligable for a War Gratuity and was Paid his War Gratuity(search the forum for explanations).

J before his number would mean that he was in the seamen and communications branch.

Pembroke was the barracks at Chatham.

Pictures of HMS St George http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/edga...S%20St%20George

1917 Submarine depot ship Aegean. http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/armoured-cruiser/hms-edgar.html

Pictures of His Majesty's Ship Europa http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/diad...tm#HMS%20Europa She served in the Aegean. I don't have my book on Shore establishments of the RN to hand, so can't look up Europa II.

Pictures of HMS Caesar http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/hms_caesar.htm In the brackets after it looks like h5 which would mean her served on submarine H5 with Caesar acting as the depot ship. According to the above site she was in the Black Sea in 1919.

Where a ship was at any time was recorded in the navigational logs. These can be searched by the name and date on the UK National Archives catalogue.

Thank you very much for all that information it's really helpful. For what reason did people get paid war gratuity? Is there anyway of finding out how much it was?

I'm not having much luck searching the forum for explanations though I'm afraid, searches are returning this post and others also recommending to search forums for explanation!

I've also tried searching the National Archives catalogue for navigational logs with no joy , am I missing something? Are the logs online?

I have the pictures alreday - they're great aren't they!

Thank you very much again, really interesting

[danikaashley]

Hello Danika

HMS Pembroke is a landbase situated in The Royal Docks at Chatham, sadly now not used

by the navy.

St George was a depot ship which my granddfather also served on.

If you google Royal Docks at Chatham you can see some interesting buildingd together with info

on when and what it was used for.

regards Margarette

Thanks Margarette -

was your Grandfather on HMS St. George at the same time? do you know anything about what the ship did or where it went?

Thanks again

[joseph]

War Gratuities to Seamen Royal Navy.

Gratuities on the following scales to be granted to Chief Petty officers, Petty Officers, Men and Boys of the Royal Navy,whether they belong to the permanent service or reserve or were entered for "Hostilities only."

For the first year's service or part of a year if a year has not been served.

Increment for each additional calendar month or final portion of a calendar month after a year's service, subject to a maximum of 48 such monthly increments.

Boys

£2

Ordinary Seamen or Able Seamen

£5

Leading Rates .

£6

Petty Officers .

£8

Chief Petty Officers .

£12

Note.-No Gratuity to be paid to ratings who have rendered only six months' or less than six months' service within the prescribed war period without any service at sea or overseas.

The War Gratuity in the case of Royal Naval Reservists to be inclusive of the Discharge Gratuity of 30 days' pay where payable under the Royal Naval Reserve Regulations.

The Gratuity not to be payable to or in respect of:-

Conscientious Objectors;

Ratings discharged for misconduct, or other causes within their own control in the nature of misconduct;

Ratings (other than guns' crews of Defensively Armed Merchant Ships and certain ratings lent to Contractors) paid at Mercantile or civilian rates except that any such men as were paid Naval rates during a period of their service to be eligible for the Gratuity, calculated on such period;

Men re-employed before the war at civilian rates of pay who continued on their peace employment during the war under the same conditions ;

Colonial ratings paid from Colonial Funds, and Royal Naval ratings lent to Colonial Navies for the period during which they were in receipt of Colonial rates of pay;

Ratings entered, under special agreement on Form T. 124 or any of its variants, T. 299 or variants, or under Yardcraft or Dockyard agreements;

Ratings who entered the Royal Navy or Royal Marines after the 11th November, 1918, and had no qualifying was service prior to that date;

Ratings who. rendered only part-time service in the Royal Naval Anti-Aircraft Corps and had no qualifying war service in any other branch of H.M. ,Forces;

Employees of the General Post Office in receipt of full civil pay;

Native ratings (men of colour) who were not serving on the 1st December, 1919, unless they were entered for Continuous Service at ordinary Naval rates of pay.

The Gratuity to be payable in addition to any pension or gratuity granted in respect of disability.

War service qualifying for Gratuity to be service actually rendered within the period 2nd August, 1914, and the 1st August, 1919 (both dates inclusive) subject to the other conditions specified herein. Service in the Army or Royal Air Force prior to joining the Royal Navy or Royal Marines to be counted provided it was not denied on entry, and would qualify for War Gratuity under the appropriates regulations and subject to the deduction from the Gross amount of War Gratuity assessed on the combined service of any War Gratuity (or Pay Warrant Gratuity recoverable from War Gratuity) already issued.

In assessing they period of qualifying war service rendered all time prior to or in, desertion to be ignored and the following periods not to be counted:

The whole of any period of imprisonment or detention of 29 days or over.

Time waiting trial after recovery from desertion and prior to resumption of duty and pay.

Time during which ratings (other than guns of Defensively Armed Merchant Ships. and certain ratings lent to Contractors) have been paid at Mercantile or civil rates.

Any period of demobilised service rendered in the Reserve.

Service in the Coast Guard Pensioner Force.

Time during which ratings were lent to Colonial Naval Forces and received Colonial rates of Pay.

The Gratuity to be assessed on the basis of the substantive or paid acting rating (whichever rating is higher) actually held either on the 1st August, 1919, or on the date of discharge or demobilisation. if earlier, or on the 11th November, 1918, if the man was actually serving on that date, provided the higher rating was not relinquished on account of misconduct, inefficiency of at the man's own request. Men in receipt of ‘difference of pay' to be eligible only for the amount appropriate to their proper rating and not for the amount due to men holding the higher rating in which they are doing duty.

The Gratuity for service as a rating in the case of man promoted to Warrant or Commissioned rank to be issuable independently of the Gratuity for service as an Officer, except that where any part of the latter service was rendered at sea or overseas, the Gratuity for service as a rating to be calculated at the higher rate of monthly increment.

The Gratuities to be payable to men already discharged or demobilised or to the personal legal representatives of such ratings as have died either while serving or after discharge and, before receiving payment.

The Gratuities to be exempt from Income Tax.

Regards Charles

[danikaashley]

War Gratuities to Seamen Royal Navy.

Gratuities on the following scales to be granted to Chief Petty officers, Petty Officers, Men and Boys of the Royal Navy,whether they belong to the permanent service or reserve or were entered for "Hostilities only."

For the first year's service or part of a year if a year has not been served.

Increment for each additional calendar month or final portion of a calendar month after a year's service, subject to a maximum of 48 such monthly increments.

Boys

£2

Ordinary Seamen or Able Seamen

£5

Leading Rates .

£6

Petty Officers .

£8

Chief Petty Officers .

£12

Note.-No Gratuity to be paid to ratings who have rendered only six months' or less than six months' service within the prescribed war period without any service at sea or overseas.

The Gratuities to be exempt from Income Tax.

Regards Charles

Thank you so much for that Charles, thats great!

My GGdad was Ordinary Seaman so would he have been given £5 plus the monthly increments? Could you by any chance tell me what these increments were?

He served from18/07/1917 until 17/09/1919.

Thanks again

[sadsac]

DANIKA - `what is the significance of letters before No.' -

C/J for C = Chatham (the Naval Base in which he `signed on')

J = Seaman Class

Therefore C/J 73960

Sadsac

[sadsac]

DANIKA - `what is the significance of letters before No.' -

C/J for C = Chatham (the Naval Base in which he `signed on')

J = Seaman Class

Therefore C/J 73960

Sadsac

[Toms girl]

Hi Danika

A depot ship was used to as a mobile or fixed store and base for other ships.

I have checked my g.fathers record and he served on the George in 1910 so to

early for your relative,

I have several entries on his record i.e.

paid NP fund £4.00

Prize money for sinking German sub. cant read amount

£30 final distribution local prize fund.

paid £3.20 gratuity plus some I cant read.

I have never really understood what they were for excatly.

By the way if you press fast reply after answering it cuts the orignal message

out and keeps the moderators happy.

regards Margarette

[joseph]

Could you by any chance tell me what these increments were?

10/- per calender month up to a maximum of 48 months, so £11.10/-.

Regards Charles

[danikaashley]

Thank you Sadsac - that certainly makes sense. Do you by any chance know what the number under his name means? Which of the numbers would have been used to identify him?

And thanks again Margarette - I'm Fast Replying! (sorry I didn't know thats what I'm supposed to do - thanks for pointing it out), ooh 'prize money' does sound exciting doesn't it?! Shame it wasn't as nice as it sounds. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you very much for working that out for me Charles! So he was paid £11.10 war gratuity? Really interesting. Thanks so much for your help!

[horatio2]

PIC 364627 - Number of the Protection and Identity Certificate issued to him on being demobilised.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

You beat me by four minutes. Nice to hear from you.

Always the source of so much info.

Glad to help.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The navigational ('ships') logs can be searched by the name and date on the UK National Archives catalogue.

Word or phrase (name of the ship)

Year range (those he was on the ship)

Department or Series code (adm for admiralty)

None available for St George

ADM 53/41203 EUROPA 1917 July 1 - 1918 Dec. 31

ADM 53/41204 EUROPA 1919 Jan. 1 - 1919 Mar. 5

ADM 53/36592 CAESAR 1919 Feb. 1st. - ADM 53/36596 1919 June 30th.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

So he was paid £11.10 war gratuity?

He was paid £11 and 10 shillings, which when Britain went decimal became £11.50. The purchase power that represted, even after war time inflation, was colossal. A house could be rented for seven shillings a week!

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Therefore C/J 73960

Until 1925 the home base did not form part of the Official Number, so before then it was written J 73960.

[danikaashley]

Thanks for that horatio - I presumed this was his 'regimental' number, (what do they call an individuals number in the navy??) thank you very much, that was something I was completely unaware of. Are the certificates traceable by any chance??

And thanks a million again per ardua I'll try to search the National Archives again tomorrow when I can grab more time on the computer. Also thank you for clarifying the war gratuity for me - I was under the impression that this wasn't very much money but it seems I was greatly mistaken!!

[horatio2]

I presumed this was his 'regimental' number, (what do they call an individuals number in the navy??) Are the certificates traceable by any chance??

The number on the PIC has nothing to do with the man's number. They were just sequentially numbered certificates torn from a pad. His service number (or official number) by which he was identified was J.73960 (which would have been entered in the appropriate place on the PIC. Few PICs have survived.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Are the certificates traceable by any chance??

As horatio2 said these were issued to the man, and so have the same chances of survival of any 90 year old bit of ephemera.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

(what do they call an individuals number in the navy??)

... I was under the impression that this wasn't very much money but it seems I was greatly mistaken!!

The navy called them Official Numbers; they had one system accross the whole Navy and so far as I have seen always used it when writing about an other rank, which makes researching them far easier than the army!

There's a brilliant aid by Dr Harold Priestley, The what did it cost the day before yesterday book, (Kenneth Mason, Havant, 1979); here's some prices from the 1921 to 1930 section for you to put his gratuity into context:

Pint of beer = 6d old pence (in 1971 that became 2½p) so he could get 20 pints for the 10 shillings!

Bottle of rum = 12 shillings (60p)

4lb (about 1800 grams) bread = 8d (3½p)

1lb (about 450 grams) beef = 1s (5p) so 4.5Kg for 10shillings

One ton of coal for £1/10 (£1.50)

20 Players Medium cigarettes = 1s (5p)

Man’s overcoat = £3/10 (£3.50)

Suit = £3/10 (£3.50)

Shirt = 12s (60p)

Shoes = £1

[Molly9]

Thanks for that horatio - I presumed this was his 'regimental' number, (what do they call an individuals number in the navy??) thank you very much, that was something I was completely unaware of. Are the certificates traceable by any chance??

And thanks a million again per ardua I'll try to search the National Archives again tomorrow when I can grab more time on the computer. Also thank you for clarifying the war gratuity for me - I was under the impression that this wasn't very much money but it seems I was greatly mistaken!!

Hi Danika, I am researching Louis Crook who also served on Europa 1 & 11 around the same time. Could you help me please by letting me know if you found anything of interest?

Miss D. Mary Hornby Apr 13th, 2010 - 6:59 PM

WW1 Maltese boats Could anyone please tell me anything about & what happened on these boats on which RNVR CMM Louis Crook from Lancashire, served during WW1, he was on minelaying duties at Valetta & the Aegean Sea?

MFA Valhalla 29/8/1916 - 31/3/1917

Osiris II 1/4/1917 - 12/3/1918 Mon, 26 11 1917 & 26 12 1917 men drowned

Valhalla II 13/3/1918 - 30/6/1918

Valhalla II (ML539) 1/7/1918 - 1/8/1918

Europa 1 2/8/1918 - 30/9/1918

Europa II (884?) 1/10/1918 - 11/2/1919 He also served on HMS Hermione up to end August 1916 & after 11th Feb 1919.