Troublesome machine guns

[Tim Birch]

Robert graves describes how 2 Royal Welch Fusiliers came up with an idea for dealing with troublesome machine guns at night. Sentries were issued with a length of string with a bullet tied to each end. When a particular troublesome MG opened up they sighted on it and pegged out the string using the bullets as pegs. Up to 30 of these sighted strings would be installed at different points along the parapet. Then a rifleman would be postioned at each string and, wedged in tightly by sandbags, his rifle aimed along the sighted string.

The next time the MG opened up each riflemen fired off 5 rounds rapid. This resulted in the MG nest being hit by up to 150 concentrated rounds from different angles within a few seconds.

I should imagine that the effect would have been devastating for the MG crew.

Tim

[Annette Burgoyne]

I should imagine that the effect would have been devastating for the MG crew.

Too right there Tim, it would have been hellish for the poor old machine gunners to get a bit of their own medine back, I bet if they lived through this fire they would have stopped firing for the rest of the night for fear of getting more of the same.

Annette

[Guest]

As a newcomer to the Forum my efforts may not be to the excellent

standard of established members, i will improve.

I would imagine that the aiming ruse used by the Royal Welsh Fusiliers

may be effective initially to concentrate fire on one machine gun but

surely other enemy machine guns would subsequently concentrate

their fire on the parapet of the Fusiliers trench. this would be counter

productive

[Muerrisch]

RG never let the facts get in the way of a good story. Fortunately. The amount of organisation necessary to achieve the desired affect would be virtually impossible in the front line, when organising anything more complicated than the delivery forward of a rapidly cooling cuppa and a wad proved beyond many a unit.

[Tim Birch]

Its interesting that the German machine guns used to traverse the British trench from time to time aiming just an inch or so above the parapet. For this reason Royal Welch Fusilier sentries were required to stand with their whole upper torso above the trench line. At first reading this seemed like madness, but they had discovered that a man was far more likely to survive being hit in the chest, shoulders or arms than in the head, which is what occured to sentries who just peeped over the parapet.

Tim

[Annette Burgoyne]

LB - I did think "Robert graves can it be a 100% true", I am not a great fan of Graves but would he tell a bear faced lie and totaly make it up ?.

Annette

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I have a photo of a German MG at Serre in 1915/1916. The gun has a steel shield as many did and there is evidence that it had been hit by enemy fire numerous times but considering the shield held I doubt the crew would have been deterred from firing it at the British lines.

Ralph

[NIGEL]

As to the previous replies--------would the machine gunners had to do as they were told if they refused to get up and start firing would they be shot or whatever for being a coward---------and if its true about rifles being positioned at the same time wouldnt the germans have their snipers positioned to blow the heads off any british soldier getting up to shoot -------when they went over the top it was probably down to sheer numbers that they werent all killed in the first second------i think most rifles in those days were single shot bolt action which means they had to be recocked after every shot---------today i dont think a single soldier would have made it out of the trench

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Nigel

and if its true about rifles being positioned at the same time wouldnt the germans have their snipers positioned to blow the heads off any british soldier getting up to shoot

Robert graves reports this takeing place at night by fixings their rifles with sandbags, which would have meant they could fire at a target at night, ok not 100% akrate (sorry not sure of spelling) but with serveral rifles fire rapid you will get shots on your target. Snipers fireing at night would also have to used the fixed rifle method on a know target like a low parapet or a know Sentrie post.

I know it is possible to fire on know targets at night by fixing rifle on the spot, I have read of there such accounts. By the way Ralph not all German MG's had shields, I've seen many photos with no shields but evan if the one fired at by RWF, had a shield, it would still be un-nerving having so many aimed bullets hiting the metal plate ?

Annette

[Muerrisch]

Dr Dunn [author/editor TWTIK] had a personal copy of RG GTAT and the margins are peppered with disbelieving comments, to put it politely. RG a hero of mine but there is not enough salt in Cheshire to take with his hyperbole.

[Tim Birch]

Langley

I have read the introduction to TWTIK. Yes it is critical of Graves, but does not dispute this particular description. Personally I think it has a ring of truth and good common sense about it, and I can imagine it being tried out. It strikes me as being too detailed for Graves to have fabricated it.

There is a difference between exageration or being economical with the truth, and bare faced lying, which is what the description given by Graves would have been if he had made it up.

Tim

[Tim Birch]

I would add to my last post that the method described by Graves was a scaled down version of what artillery spotters did to pinpoint the position of an enemy battery.

Tim

[Jim Gordon]

May I add a little contrbution

Even if the method adopted by 2RWF did result in a rough estimate of the bearing of a prospective target this would not ensure that fire returned would hit the target unless the range was also known.

I find it difficult to understand the logic behind 2RWF's requirement for sentries to expose their upper torsoes when on duty if such was the case. Surely this larger target area would produce a greater proportion of casualties resulting in a weakening of the defence system. From a military point of view it does not matter if a soldier is killed or wounded. He becomes a casualty and is removed from the firing line.

Regards

Jim Gordon

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

From a military point of view it does not matter if a soldier is killed or wounded. He becomes a casualty and is removed from the firing line.

The officers of any unit wheather they be 2nd Lt's or Lt-Col's, would rather have a man wounded in the upper body and stand a chance of getting well again, than have a chap have his brains blown out and never get home, other units got sentries to stand with upper torsoes above the trench at night.

Annette

[Jim Gordon]

Annette

It is only my opinion, not an expert one I hasten to add, but I would have thought that any officer would avoid unneccessary casualties.

Regards

Jim Gordon

[Annette Burgoyne]

Hi Jim

any officer would avoid unneccessary casualties

Yes but they had to have sentries and sentries at night have to look over top of trench, the things they looked through in day light would not have worked that well at night (sorry I can't think what they are called, I've got a bad head ache from trying to work out sitation on 8th May 1915 for another tread), so whats best having your head in line of fire of upper torsoe ?

Annette