Mechanic Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Can anyone help? I am researching KIDDIE, Robert Matthew, b. Edinburgh, Midlothian, e. Edinburgh, Midlothian, r. Edinburgh, Midlothian, 30239, PRIVATE, Died, France & Flanders, 01/07/18, King's Own Scottish Borderers, 6th Battalion. I am looking for any info on the battalions whereabouts in June/July 1918 or any other useful info or links generally afforded by the good folk of this forum. Regards Jason PS - all I have is his MRC from the national archives and the info above from the SDGW CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Hi Jason, Afraid to say that I don't think the war diary is of much use to you regards Private Kiddie's death because as you state above, he 'died' rather than being killed in action or died of wounds. Private Kiddie is buried in Chauny which is very far to the south compared to the location of the 6th KOSB at the time - Honeghem just north of Hazebrouck (they had been in that area for three months). Having looked at the details of Chauny Communal Cemetery British Extension on the CWGC for July burials: CY-SUR-SERRE GERMAN CEMETERY (Aisne) - 53 British soldiers were buried, mainly by the Germans, Mar-Sep 1918 CHARMES COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (Aisne) - 14 soldiers buried by their comrades in June and July 1918 HAUNY GERMAN NATIONAL CEMETERY (Aisne) - 15 British graves of March-July 1918 PREMONTRE COMMUNAL CEMETERY (Aisne) - 2 British burials of July and August, 1918 It is possible that he may have originally been buried in a German cemetery, so perhaps he was a prisoner of war who died in captivity? It may be worth writing to the CWGC to ask for the site of his original burial. One other piece of info for you - his regimental number indicates an issue date of late February or very early March 1917. Cheers, Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundeesown Posted 26 January , 2009 Share Posted 26 January , 2009 Hi Jason I think the 6th would have been with the 9th ( Scottish ) Division at this time. Cambrai---From March-----Held the Villers-Guislan and Gonnelieu sector Somme----21 March--------Forced back through Equancourt Somme----24/26th March--Retired through Montauban to the River Ancre Ypres---early April----------Held the Hollebeke sector Lys-----10-25th April--------Fell back through St Eloi to Voormezeele Lys----May-July--------------Held the Meteren Sector Lys----19th July-------------Captured Meteren Lys----18th Aug--------------Captured Hoegenacker Ridge Ypres---Sept-----------------Held the Potijze Sector Ypres---28th Sep------------Advanced to Dadizeele Courtrai--14/17th Oct------Advanced across the River Lys and through Ooteghem Courtrai---26th Oct---------Reached Berchem on the river Schelde. this from Andrew Rawsons British Army Handbook.1914-1918 All the best Gary.F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 27 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Hi Jason, as you state above, he 'died' rather than being killed in action or died of wounds. Private Kiddie is buried in Chauny which is very far to the south compared to the location of the 6th KOSB at the time - Honeghem just north of Hazebrouck (they had been in that area for three months). Having looked at the details of Chauny Communal Cemetery British Extension on the CWGC for July burials: CY-SUR-SERRE GERMAN CEMETERY (Aisne) - 53 British soldiers were buried, mainly by the Germans, Mar-Sep 1918 CHARMES COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (Aisne) - 14 soldiers buried by their comrades in June and July 1918 HAUNY GERMAN NATIONAL CEMETERY (Aisne) - 15 British graves of March-July 1918 PREMONTRE COMMUNAL CEMETERY (Aisne) - 2 British burials of July and August, 1918 It is possible that he may have originally been buried in a German cemetery, so perhaps he was a prisoner of war who died in captivity? It may be worth writing to the CWGC to ask for the site of his original burial. Cheers, Stuart I didn't realise that 'died' had that meaning. Is this a definite that he didn't die from front line action or wounds or could he have been subject to an accident behind the lines? I have read of accidents while training with rifles and grenades. I hve contacted the CWGC as you suggested. Thanks Jason Hi Jason I think the 6th would have been with the 9th ( Scottish ) Division at this time. Cambrai---From March-----Held the Villers-Guislan and Gonnelieu sector Somme----21 March--------Forced back through Equancourt Somme----24/26th March--Retired through Montauban to the River Ancre Ypres---early April----------Held the Hollebeke sector Lys-----10-25th April--------Fell back through St Eloi to Voormezeele Lys----May-July--------------Held the Meteren Sector Lys----19th July-------------Captured Meteren Lys----18th Aug--------------Captured Hoegenacker Ridge Ypres---Sept-----------------Held the Potijze Sector Ypres---28th Sep------------Advanced to Dadizeele Courtrai--14/17th Oct------Advanced across the River Lys and through Ooteghem Courtrai---26th Oct---------Reached Berchem on the river Schelde. this from Andrew Rawsons British Army Handbook.1914-1918 All the best Gary.F. I assume this is march 1918 to october 1918? Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 27 January , 2009 Share Posted 27 January , 2009 Hi Jason, Yes, in the SDGW data set 'died' has a specific meaning which, to my knowledge, applies to illness or accidental death. I certainly know of several men who drowned while serving with the Mediterranean Expeditionary Force and they are all listed as died. I only give this view based on my personal research experience; there will probably be other forum pals with examples where this is not the case. On that basis, then 'died' could also include accidents while training with rifles and grenades. However, in Private Kiddie's case he is buried a very long way from where his battalion was based. Indeed, if he was accidentally wounded and evacuated, I think he would have been moved northwards, not to the south. I think it more likely that he was taken prisoner in March/April 1918. Others will be able to tell you whether the particular area where he is buried would have been in German hands at that time. I can send you a few months worth of 6th KOSB war diaries for you to check for any mention of accidents. Send me a PM with your email address, if you'd like them. The summary of locations given by Gary is for 1918. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellyj Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Hi Gentlemen coincidence is a funny old thing........ I have recently found out that my husbands great grandfather was also 6 Bn KOSB and from his service records note that he was captured on or around 24 march 1918 which fits in nicely with the information described above. His details are 31395 Pte Alexander Jessiman and he was a prisoner of war for approx 9 months in Munster II. I don't want to highjack this thread but if anyone has any further information that I would find useful it would be greatly appreciated. PPCLI - any chance I could have a copy of the diaries you mention? Many thanks in advance Shellyj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PPCLI Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 PPCLI - any chance I could have a copy of the diaries you mention? Hi Shellyj, Send me a PM with your email address and I'll forward you the 6th KOSB war diary for March 1918. His number suggests an issue date of July/August 1917, so probably on the Western Front by the end of the year. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 29 January , 2009 Share Posted 29 January , 2009 Just a quick note to say that sometimes 'Died' can mean either Killed in Action or Died of Wounds. It is not very common, but some regiments/battalions for some days seem to have listed men thus when they have died in action. Your best bet is to look at the battalion deaths in SDGW for that day/week and see how other deaths are recorded. If there are many people recorded as Died, and you know the battalion was in action, then you can be sure that you man was killed as a result of being in action. As I mention, it is not too common, but it does happen. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 29 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2009 The war diaries for 6th KOSB say - April 24th B & D surrounded and cut off also June 30th/1st July reports 'influenza outbreak 140 men sent to hospital' Robert died on 1st and was buried 180km away so could be a pow Stewart - I'll check the SDGW records to see if there is any evidence of you're theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 One other piece of info for you - his regimental number indicates an issue date of late February or very early March 1917. Cheers, Stuart Is there a code for regimental numbers? How do you pin down the date? Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Hi Jason, Yes, in the SDGW data set 'died' has a specific meaning which, to my knowledge, applies to illness or accidental death. Stuart Found this definition for SDGW data: "Died" (natural causes)- The third major classification of death which appears in the HMSO lists is "died", this appearing in the printed versions of the lists as "d". This notation means that the man died of natural causes and did not fall into either the kia or dow classifications. A fairly high proportion of these men will be found to have burials in the UK, and investigations into their deaths will fall outside of the research which I undertake. I deduct from this that Robert was very likely a POW. If he had 'died' in the line then he would have been buried locally or UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Birch Posted 30 January , 2009 Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Afternoon Chaps, I suspect this could be your man. You may know this already but if not... Age is based on 1901. Name:Robert Matthew KiddieAge:19 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1882 Relationship:Son Father's Name:ThomasMother's Name:MargaretGender:Male Where born:Edinburgh Registration Number:685/1 Registration district:St George Civil Parish:Edinburgh Dean County:Midlothian Address:51 C B Avenue Occupation:Survey Assistant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Afternoon Chaps, I suspect this could be your man. You may know this already but if not... Age is based on 1901. Name:Robert Matthew KiddieAge:19 Estimated Birth Year:abt 1882 Relationship:Son Father's Name:ThomasMother's Name:MargaretGender:Male Where born:Edinburgh Registration Number:685/1 Registration district:St George Civil Parish:Edinburgh Dean County:Midlothian Address:51 C B Avenue Occupation:Survey Assistant spot on, this is the 1901 census info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 The war diaries for 6th KOSB say - April 24th B & D surrounded and cut off also June 30th/1st July reports 'influenza outbreak 140 men sent to hospital' Robert died on 1st and was buried 180km away so could be a pow Stewart - I'll check the SDGW records to see if there is any evidence of you're theory. Found this on Influenza: "With the 1918 flu, people would die very quickly, almost overnight, because their lungs would fill with fluid. You would have a young person who would start to feel sick and, within hours or a day or so, would be gasping breath. Their skin would turn dark because their blood wasn’t getting enough oxygen. One person described it as mahogany spots on the cheek- bones, and then the dark color started to spread.” "The flu was most deadly for people ages 20 to 40" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 30 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Hi Jason, However, in Private Kiddie's case he is buried a very long way from where his battalion was based. Indeed, if he was accidentally wounded and evacuated, I think he would have been moved northwards, not to the south. I think it more likely that he was taken prisoner in March/April 1918. Others will be able to tell you whether the particular area where he is buried would have been in German hands at that time. Stuart Chauny is about half way between St Quentin and Soissons so, if I have read this right, it looks like it was in German hands at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnr.ktrha Posted 30 January , 2009 Share Posted 30 January , 2009 Is there any clue on the CWGC website regarding the history of the cemetry, ie, when it was started and by whom, if there were any Hospitals near by. This might help with your search. I just has a wee look on the Scottish National War Memorial website at his entry. His place of death is given as F & F. This is a bit of a pity as I was hoping to see the place of death given as Germany. I have come across a couple of POW's on there, in the past, and there place of Death is given as Germany, even though at least one has died in Belgium and had only been in German hands for a day. Not much help, I am afraid. I have bound copies of the Edinburgh Evening News for the whole of 1918. I will dig them out and have a look over the weekend to see if he gets a mention, or has a photo published. I will let you know how I get on. Regards, Stewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 31 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2009 Is there any clue on the CWGC website regarding the history of the cemetry, ie, when it was started and by whom, if there were any Hospitals near by. This might help with your search. I just has a wee look on the Scottish National War Memorial website at his entry. His place of death is given as F & F. This is a bit of a pity as I was hoping to see the place of death given as Germany. I have come across a couple of POW's on there, in the past, and there place of Death is given as Germany, even though at least one has died in Belgium and had only been in German hands for a day. Not much help, I am afraid. I have bound copies of the Edinburgh Evening News for the whole of 1918. I will dig them out and have a look over the weekend to see if he gets a mention, or has a photo published. I will let you know how I get on. Regards, Stewart I have asked CWGC if Robert was moved to this cemetery. The Chauny cemetery extension was made after the Armistice for the burial of remains brought in from the battlefields of the Aisne and from smaller cemeteries in the surrounding countryside. I am also obtaining his service record which might shed some light. Any help from the papers gratefully received. Regards Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shellyj Posted 31 January , 2009 Share Posted 31 January , 2009 I have just had a look on ancestry for you but his service records aren't there. His mic is and the listing in SDGW but that's it I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanic Posted 8 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 February , 2009 It is possible that he may have originally been buried in a German cemetery, so perhaps he was a prisoner of war who died in captivity? It may be worth writing to the CWGC to ask for the site of his original burial. One other piece of info for you - his regimental number indicates an issue date of late February or very early March 1917. Cheers, Stuart Stuart Have since found he was a POW who died of dysentery in Germany. Can you tell me how to work out the issue date of the regimental number? Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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