WestallSS Indore / Gunner E

[Emperorbaz]

Hi, its a long shot but I am wondering if anyone can help me. I am seeking information about my Great Uncle, Thomas Cook Westall, A gunner in the RMA 10313, who died on the 10/8/1918 and is buried in islay. I understand his last ship to be the SS Indore, and think he had been invalided out of the marines but rejoined the mercantile marines, but can find little else. I know he was mentioned in despatches, and would dearly love to find out more about him.

Can anyone help?

[horatio2]

When he died he was an active service Gunner RMA borne on the books of HMS PRESIDENT III, so he was serving with Defensively Armed Merchant Ships (DAMS). SS INDORE was presumbably a DAMS but he may have died while shore-based.

His service record is available from Kew here:- http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

Both sets of papers at Kew (RMLI and RMA) are his. Note that he originally joined in 1901 as RMLI with register number Chatham/12759, probably transferring to RMA/ 10313 in late 1902.

[historydavid]

Barry, from Admiralty casualty records:

WESTALL, THOMAS C. , GUNNER, RMA, RMA 10313, H.M. Transport (hired) INDORE, 10-Aug-18, UK.

From db:

On 25th July 1918 HMT (da) Indore, 7,300 grt damaged by torpedo from UB 62, in position 39.43N, 05.17E, NW from Rathlin Island, North Channel, but reached port. 2 crewmen died.

The Indore reached port so your GU could have died ashore, either from injury in the attack or illness.

Best wishes

David

[Emperorbaz]

Thanks, thats incredibly helpful. What a great Forum.

I pulled this from the Swindon advertiser at the Chippenham records office today.

I find this all very fascinating - but I am new to it al, so I have two really quite basic questions.

1. When a man is Mentioned in Despatches, would there be any detail anywhere of what he did to earn this (outside of his service record)?

2. Was there a medal for a Marine soldier in the Great War - for example, for his time in East Africa?

Many thanks again

Barry

[horatio2]

I think the answer to the first question is "almost certainly not". The clue is in the award - he was mentioned (probably along with numerous other officers and ORs) in a C-in-C's despatch about an operation or period of operations, his and other names having been put forward by his battalion CO. The wording in the despatch might be e.g. "... I would call you attention to the good services rendered by the following officers and men during the operations - ... "

As far as I am aware there was no campaign medal for East Africa in WW1. Marines qualified for the usual WW1 medals in the normal way.

[Emperorbaz]

Thank you for clarifyiing that.

I notice my last post didnt upload the clipping. SO here it goes again

[horatio2]

The statement " ... he volunteered for .. a position in the Mercantile Marine as a gunner." is incorrect. This implies he became a merchant seaman, whereas he remained in the RMA and was drafted to DAMS as an RMA gunner.

He was mentioned in despatches for his service with the Royal Marine Batteries in East Africa.

[melliget]

The fact that he was mentioned in despatches appears in London Gazette Issue 30979 published 25 October 1918 (page 2 of 4):

..

The following Officers and Men have been

mentioned in despatches:-

..

Act. Bombr. Thomas Cook Westall, R.M.A.,

No. 10313 (R.M.A.R., B/1289).

This mention comes after the heading "HONOURS FOR SERVICE IN ACTION WITH ENEMY SUBMARINES" and the award of a D.S.O., two D.S.C.'s and a D.S.M., so it appears the list of officers and men that followed (mentioned in despatches) were also associated with that activity.

Here's the page:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/issues/30...pplements/12696

If the link doesn't work (I've been having some problems with the Gazettes Online site just now), go to the home page, select Advanced Search and enter your Great Uncle's full name in the field for exact phrase.

regards,

Martin

[melliget]

Did the Indore actually sink the U-boat that had just torpedoed her?

According to uboat.net, UB 62 (Günther Sperling) damaged the Indore with two torpedoes on 25 Jul 1918 about 20 miles NNW of Rathlin Island (that date seems to fit in with the newspaper report):

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/ships_hit/3006.html

But they give the fate of the UB 62 as surrendered 21 Nov 1918, broken up at Swansea 1922.

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/boats/index.html?boat=UB+62

Of course it could have been another u-boat attack that the article referred to. You may want to see if you can obtain a ship's log for the Indore around this time. If they exist for 1918, they should be in the following record held by the National Archives (Indore's Official No was 109447):

Piece details BT 165/1784

Ships Nos. 109441 - 109588

(BT 165 = Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Ships' Official Logs)

regards,

Martin

[horatio2]

This mention comes after the heading "HONOURS FOR SERVICE IN ACTION WITH ENEMY SUBMARINES" and the award of a D.S.O., two D.S.C.'s and a D.S.M., so it appears the list of officers and men that followed (mentioned in despatches) were also associated with that activity.

It is highly unlikely that this motley selection of ranks and rates (including skippers RNR and RMA gunners) would be associated with the submarine service. I expect their entries are drawn from a number of disparate despatches.

[melliget]

..this motley selection of ranks and rates..

Motley selection?! We're talking about Barry's Great Uncle here, Horatio.

I don't think there's any suggestion that these officers and men were in the submarine service but my reading of it is that they were involved in activities against enemy submarines, as corroborated (at least in Gunner Westall's case) by the newspaper article following his death.

Looking at the Gazette entry again, the next heading after the one for action with enemy submarines is for "MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES". If these were disparate despatches, as you suggest, I would have thought that they would have been included under this latter heading instead.

regards,

Martin

[horatio2]

Your are absolutely correct. Gunner Westall, was awarded a 'mention' for services on land with the RM batteries in East Africa [blumberg, page 397 - Awards for East Africa Campaign] but he was also 'mentioned' for his service in DAMS [blumberg, p.78 - Awards for the Anti-submarine war]. This LG entry is for the latter. My error.

[Michael Lowrey]

The July 25, 1918 incident is the only time Indore is listed in British Vessels Lost at Sea 1914-18, which includes a ships damaged/molested section. “Molested” includes torpedo attacks that missed, unsuccesful gunnery actions, ships chased by U-boat etc.

Indore did not sink a U-boat, that much is certain -- no missing U-boats at that time that would have been in that area. The attribution that UB 62 torpedoed Indore is from Spindler's official history. I haven't come across anything to suggest otherwise. Also, remember that the war diaries of virtually all German WWI submarines survive.

Best wishes,

Michael

[Emperorbaz]

I found another reference to the 25th July 1918 incident, and an Irishman Captain Jago claiming also to have sunk the U-Boat that hit the indore, from his ship the SS Caledonian. He didnt receive recognition either.

Well I think we should put that down to the "Fog of War" - I suppost they werent the first and certaily not the last to make over enthusuastic claims!

Thanks for all your help

Barry

[per ardua per mare per terram]

1. When a man is Mentioned in Despatches, would there be any detail anywhere of what he did to earn this (outside of his service record)?

2. Was there a medal for a Marine soldier in the Great War - for example, for his time in East Africa?

1. Yes, the original files for the recommendations are very likely to be held at the UK National archives, Kew, and will probably have more details. To find it you will have to use the ADM 12 indexes, here's the research guide. It is a laborious process, but you will get the actual recommendation for the MIDs and the circumstances behind the awards. The ADM 12 indexes and the files are original records and you’ll need a readers ticket to view them.

2. Roll Of Naval War Medals ADM 171/171 Royal Marines: NCOs and Men If his family thought that he was in the Mercantile Marine they might have tried to claim the Mercantile Marine War Medal, the Medal Index Cards for that are in BT 351.

[Guest]

Really long shot but Baz if you're still on this forum let me know.  Thomas Cook Westall is my mother's great uncle, and I came across this post while finishing extensive research into her family tree - she's Hannah's granddaughter - maybe we can swap info on relatives?

Edited 22 July , 2017 by Guest
spelling

[sotonmate]

Linda

 

Welcome to the Forum !

From data here it seems that Baz was last logged in during July 2010.

What you can do is click on his name to the left of his post 14 above and send him a message by clicking on Message box, and this will show in his e-mail !

 

Edited 22 July , 2017 by sotonmate

[Guest]

Thanks sotonmate I will do that!

[Guest]

I have just come across this chain 10 years late, searching for a relative who I thought served on the Indore. some of the log books for Indore, including for 1918, survive in the National archives at Kew - you will find it at file NA: BT 165/1784. This log book records the journey when Indore was torpoedoed.

• The Log Book cover page states: "From Liverpool, foreign voyage, Voyage terminted at sea 27/5/18 - Vessel torpedored; log book delivered to Superintendant of Mercantile Marine at Liverpool on 1/8/18".
• Page 14 gives details of the journey and states: "7am, 25/7/18 Lat 55.27N, Long 6.38W. Ship torpedoed, afterwards beached in Port Charlotte (Islay) about 3pm. After mustering Crew found G Taylor and B Herman Firemen (32 and 34 respectively in Articles) were missing".
• Page 10 List of Deaths during the voyage refers to three men - two [George Taylor and Blankson Herman] were lost at sea with cause of death "Explosion of Enemies (sic) Torpedo. The third was Thomas Cook Westall. He died on 10/8/18, ie two weeks after the ship was torpedoed.
• The entry relating to Thomas states: "Date of Death - 10/8/18 - Thomas Cook Westall. Male 35, Chief Gunner RMA, Actg Bonbardier, Naval Rating, British (place of birth Aldbourne) of 36 Priory Road, Eastney, Portsmouth. Cause of Death - Accident Falling Down Hatch".

If you want to see the original you will either need to visit NA at Kew [you need to get a Reader's Ticket]. Alternartively, if you go to their website and their online discovery cataloge, you should be able to find a place to order a copy which they will send to you for a  (generally quite reasonable) fee.

 

His place of birth, the village of Aldbourne is coincidentally near where I live. It is in Wiltshire, not far from Swindon. It became famous in the television series "Band of Brothers" as the place where the USA 101st Airbourne Division was based before the D-Day landings.

 

Hope this is helpful, even if 10 years too late!

[grantowi]

On 08/01/2020 at 19:03, Steven Shuttleworth said:

His place of birth, the village of Aldbourne is coincidentally near where I live. It is in Wiltshire, not far from Swindon. It became famous in the television series "Band of Brothers" as the place where the USA 101st Airbourne Division was based before the D-Day landings.

 

If you are in the Chiseldon area - not far from Aldbourne and where the Army had a camp in WW2 - the village shop is an old nissen hut that can from the American base.