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pte Albert Walker - Bradford Pals


alexander1
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Hi

could any one help me? i have come into posession of my wifes great uncles medals. according to his medal index card and medals his number is 16/1197 which belongs to the 16th battalion the west yorkshire regiment and was known as the 1st battalion the Bradford Pals. according to his M.I.D card he entered Franch on the 6/12/1915.

After doing some local research i have discovered that on that date however the Bradford Pals were in Egypt gaurding the suez canal for 3 months and didnt get to France until the March 1916. Why the discrepense.

His M.I.D card does show him having another regiment number for the Yorks and Lancs (No. 38463). Could this be the reason? Could any one help me by filling in any information

Dargai

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Can guess that he was sent to France when in the Yorks and Lancs as reinforcements, landing there 6/12/15. At some point thereafter he was transferred to the West Yorks and it is they who issued his medals. Perhaps only his service record would clarify, but maybe worth looking on SDGW at casualties with number sequences around his number(s) to see if there was any pattern of transfer between these regiments.

Ian

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Can guess that he was sent to France when in the Yorks and Lancs as reinforcements, landing there 6/12/15. At some point thereafter he was transferred to the West Yorks and it is they who issued his medals. Perhaps only his service record would clarify, but maybe worth looking on SDGW at casualties with number sequences around his number(s) to see if there was any pattern of transfer between these regiments.

Ian

Hi Ian

forgive my ignorance put how and where can i access his service record.

so it is possible that he was in the yorks and lancs first and then transfered to the west yorks.

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At Kew, or online at Ancestry.com

But some 2/3rds were destroyed in the Blitz, so a smaller chance that your chap's have survived. I think 'W' for Walker may not yet have been placed online, as Ancestry are working through all the records starting from 'A'.

Ian

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Ancestry only up to "N" for service records.....

Hi

Is there no other way of finding out which of the two regiments he jined first and when he may have transfered to the other.

Can it not be found out by the regiment numbers he was issued with. i know for instance that west yorkshire (Bradford palls) appears first on his M.I.D. and then Yorks and Lancs.

I naturally persumed that he had joined the palls first as he was a Bradford Lad and his number 1197 fits in with the original ones issued in 1914 when the battalion was formed.

Dragai

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Or he went to France with a different battalion of the West Yorks, was transferred to the Bradford Pals battalion, and then to the Yorks and Lancs.

Unless a pal on here with specific knowledge shows up, my suggestion of trawling through Soldiers Died might give you a clue. Can you post a copy of the MIC on here, maybe it might show something for one of our 'experts' to comment on.

Ian

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Or he went to France with a different battalion of the West Yorks, was transferred to the Bradford Pals battalion, and then to the Yorks and Lancs.

Unless a pal on here with specific knowledge shows up, my suggestion of trawling through Soldiers Died might give you a clue. Can you post a copy of the MIC on here, maybe it might show something for one of our 'experts' to comment on.

Ian

Hi

please accept my apology i appear to be unable to upload the file sent to me by Kew.

my understanding from our local history is that the 16/ denoted 16th battalion west yorkshire.

Please for give my ignorance its sum what all confusing.

Dargai

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Probably not, but that would take a numbers expert or particular regimental expert to comment on.

Usually the enlisted men were given a number on joining, then sent to the training battalion (usually the third) and then posted to an active battalion. Earlier on in the war battalions had their own numbering system and that can help guide.

Whatever, I am not the man for that - calling other pals!

Ian

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From The Long, Long Trail the only division I can see entering France in December 1915 is the 16th (Irish) Division. The division did not contain any Bn.s of either regiment mentioned on the MIC.

My guess would be a mistake on the MIC and the theatre should be Egypt with the -

16th (Service) Battalion (1st Bradford)

Formed in Bradford in September 1914 by the Lord Mayor and City.

June 1915 : attached to 93rd Brigade, 31st Division.

December 1915 : moved to Egypt. Went on to France in March 1916.

15 February 1918 : disbanded in France.

later transfering to the York and Lancs.

Anyone else?

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Hi

Hes not in the nominal i have of the 16th WYR from Nov 1914.....Its possible he enlisted in 1914.Do you have a specific area of Bradford he lived i have other nominals of Pals from Spen Valley area but are mostly 18th Batt(2nd pals) If he was born and lived in Bradford it may be an idea to ring central library and ask them to look up the City Roll of Honour it may have his batt on it??

Also the MIC may be wrong and have the wrong theatre on it. The Bradford Pals deployed on that date 6th Dec 1915 on Empress of Britain landing at Alexandria 21/22 Dec 1915.

http://www.bradlibs.com/bradfordpals/

Ady

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I too have just checked the list published in the Hudson book, and he is not there, but the number is quite low. Perhaps he was an early replacement. Certainly the coincidence of the date would support the idea of a clerical error.

Keith

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I too have just checked the list published in the Hudson book, and he is not there, but the number is quite low. Perhaps he was an early replacement. Certainly the coincidence of the date would support the idea of a clerical error.

Keith

Many thanks for your help. I have just been informed that a roll call for the 16th battalion (Bradford pals) was published in the Bradford Weekly Telegraph dated 16th November 1914 so i hope to find some information from that when i track down a copy in the library.

If any one has any further information on the Bradford pals or advice for my reaserch i would be most greatful.

Dargai

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dargai

The list of the 16th November 1914 only list's the first 1000 men, and as Albert does number does not fall under this nuber [ 1000 ], he will not be listed.

As for the Medal Index Card, stating Fance, this is a pure clerical error, this should state Eygpt the 5/12/1915, there is two dates for the Pals entering Eygpt and this can be seen on the MIC's and these date's are the 5/12/1915 and the 22/12/1915, sometimes you may get a 6/12/1915 date.

Now for Albert's Medal Index Card, as you can see by his 1915 star and the ref number, this would fall into the Pals band, if you check other pals MIC's you can see the pattern, and for the War and Victory ref number this can be seen as well.

This card carried the two clerical error's and only one was put right, and that was Albert's number, when the 16 prefix was added. The entry theatre was not corrected to Eygpt.

Now for the York and Lanc's number, you can see that he never served overseas with this Regiment as his Medals where made out to the West Yorks.

post-9-1232638713.jpg

Ca Ira

Regards as always Kevin

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Kevin

Doesnt the x mark mean that WYR was his first unit overseas therefore thats whats impressed on medals?

however MICs usually list all Regiments served overseas with so its probable he spent some time with Y+L Reg.The Medal Roll at Kew will confirm it.

Ady

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Ady

The X marks what is impressed on the Medals, if he had served overseas with the Y & L, as this would have been his last Regiment this would have been impressed on the Medal's. As for the Medal Rolls i donot think this will mention the Y & L, as no overseas service, thou i maybe proved wrong. All the Medals are on the West Yorks Medal Rolls.

Also Ady i have seen MIC's with various other Regiments on, but only the one Regiment that served oversea's, i must say thou the large proportion of these would be to the Training Reserve, but it does happen.

Ca Ira

Regards as always Kevin

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  • 3 weeks later...

Many thanks for everyones help.

i am now trying to find out when he left the Bradford pals and transfered to the Yorks and Lancs as he also has a regiment number for them. Some one has suggested to check the medal rolls for both the West Yorks and the York and Lancs. Question is how do i go about thisand how will it help in my researches.

Dargai

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Dargai

The original medal Rolls WO329/1594 show him as 16 West Yorks and 1 Yorks and Lancs.

I have a digipic of the Rolls,if you want it send me an e-mail address.

Sotonmate

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Hi there gang,

Coincidently, the Bradford Pals and the 1st York and Lancs where in Eygpt at the same time, and the 1st Y&L's moved onto Salonika.

Cheers Roger.

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