New CWGC Commemoration

[Terry Denham]

CWGC added the following 'new' WW1 casualty to its Debt of Honour database today – Wednesday 14th January.

Pte Jack UDEN

495038 Royal Army Medical Corps

Died between 16.02.19 and 01.11.20

Commemorated: Brookwood (United Kingdom 1914-1918) Memorial, Surrey, UK

NOT FORGOTTEN

[stiletto_33853]

Terry, that is quite a range for the date of death, presumably he died in the UK. Could you put us in the picture a little more with regard to why this has occured.

Not forgotten.

Andy

[Terry Denham]

Andy

Sorry. I have no more info as I was not involved in this one.

I suppose he could have gone missing on the earlier date and found later. Presumably the death certificate was no help - nor the inquest papers if there was one. In those days, I assume forensic science would have not been able to pin it down more.

[stiletto_33853]

Terry,

Many thanks I am sure that there is an interesting story behind this.

Andy

[chrisharley9]

May He Rest In Peace

This case is one of Neil Clarke's

[Andrew Hesketh]

Well done to Neil. I too am intrigued by those dates.

[MelPack]

Neil obviously fought long and hard for Jack. I hope that he will have a good celebration tonight.

Kent War Memorials Transcription Project www.kentfallen.comwww.cwgc.co.ukAppeal to the MoD (Army)

We have been investigating this case for over 4 years now! The problem we have is thatwe can’t locate a death for Jack absolutely anywhere! (including overseas). We have spent nearly £100 trying to trace his death. On the balance of probability (the legal test which should be applied in your adjudications), John died from the effects of his war service(probably Malaria) shortly after he was discharged from the army. We have managed tofind quite a lot about John including quite detailed family data going back many years. It’s very annoying that we can’t find a certified death. We have searched for a death from 1914 to 1990 without result. There are many posibilities – 1. He Died in the UK and no one knew his identity.2. He Died Overseas in a country that did not record deaths What is known is that John must have died before 1921 because the village war memorial was erected in January 1921. His name wasn’t added at a later date because it is between two other original casualties names. The people of Lympne must have had good reason to place his name on the village war memorial in 1921.His name will have to be placed on the Brookwood Memorial in Surrey due to the fact wecan’t locate his place of burial. On the basis of the evidence provided here we feel it is entirely correct and proper toapprove this case. To deny this man a commemoration would be extremely harsh based purely on the grounds we couldn’t trace his death. We appeal to you to look at the widerpicture and take into account the other facts which in our opinion proves “on the balance of probability” that he is entitled to be commemorated by the country he gave his lifefor…Thank you. Neil

[John_Hartley]

Jack Uden's MIC shows he was discharged on 16/2/19, so that explains one date. Possibly the second date relates to some "closing date" for the war memorial names?

What is perhaps much more significant is that this may represent a very considerable change of policy by MoD. Assuming that things have remained as the extract from Neil's website, then there has indeed been significant change.

It would seem that Mod has accepted someone for commemoration on the "balance of probabilities". First that they did indeed die - I am not aware that the the MoD has ever accepted that a name on war memorial is evidence, as such. And, second, that they must have died from the reason they were discharged . Previously evidence linking death to service has been needed - usually through death certificate or reference in service papers - to eliminate that a man had died through some completely unrelated illness or accident.

[MelPack]

John

I have no desire to detract from Neil's moment of pleasure by speaking on his behalf but what I can gather from his site is that Jack was discharged with acute malaria and was obviously commemorated by 1921. The frustration appears to have been that no death certificate could be located - hence the elasticity of the dates.

As you indicate this is a very interesting case.

Regards

Mel

[John_Hartley]

I have no desire to detract from Neil's moment of pleasure

Absolutely. I'm suggesting there may be a double reason for celebration if a new precedent has been set.

[SiegeGunner]

Good news, and congratulations to Neil. Did Jack Uden have a middle initial? I ask because I used to know someone called UDEN and have a friend with the surname OGG, both of whom regularly had their middle initial tacked onto the front of their surname by clerical staff who were disinclined to believe that their 'bare' surname, beginning with a vowel, was complete/correct, so Mr Uden became JUDEN and Mr Ogg became MOGG.

MOGG is a not uncommon surname, and JUDEN, coincidentally, means 'Jews' in German, and evidently also struck some clerk as a plausible surname.

So, just to suggest that it might be worth exploring death records for JUDEN, and perhaps also, in the event that his death was recorded by someone who knew only the sound of his name and not its written form, YUDEN or YOUDEN.

If Chris or Mel thinks this suggestion has any merit, perhaps they would pass it on to Neil.

Mick

[stiletto_33853]

Intresting story and very interesting regards the MOD stance on this.

Andy

[Will O'Brien]

Raising a glass to the memory of Jack & another to Neil to all his efforts in getting him commemorated.

[chrisharley9]

Mick

thanks for your sugguestions - I have a good look but unfortunately no matches

Chris

[chrisharley9]

Neil has asked me to pass on his thanks for all of your help & pointers

Chris

[John_Hartley]

Chris

Did he happen to mention if new information had come to light (over & above the above extract from his website) or if the MoD had indeed made a decision on the "balance of probablility"?

John

[chrisharley9]

Message received today from Neil

YES indeed I think this (UDEN J) case is indeed a very very important precident - the very first time a non-com has been approved without a date of death or DC being found or submitted. In my book this is a good thing. It's about time the MoD started to use their discretion in these matters. As far as I'm concerned this is a welcome development indeed. At last they are basing their decisions on the "balance of probability" and NOT "Beyond Reasonable Doubt" as has been wrongly used in the past. The MoD (Army) are clearly using their heads now. It's a great shame that the MoD (Navy) and MoD (Air Force) aren't doing likewise, they remain as ineffectual as ever!

[chrisharley9]

Neil's full submission in this case (published with his consent)

Appeal to the MoD (Army)

We have been investigating this case for over 4 years now! The problem we have is that we can’t locate a death for Jack absolutely anywhere! (including overseas). We have spent nearly £100 trying to trace his death. On the balance of probability (the legal test which should be applied in your adjudications), John died from the effects of his war service (probably Malaria) shortly after he was discharged from the army. We have managed to find quite a lot about John including quite detailed family data going back many years. It’s very annoying that we can’t find a certified death. We have searched for a death from 1914 to 1990 without result.

There are many posibilities –

He Died in the UK and no one knew his identity.

He Died Overseas in a country that did not record deaths

What is known is that John must have died before 1921 because the village war memorial was erected in January 1921. His name wasn’t added at a later date because it is between two other original casualties names. The people of Lympne must have had good reason to place his name on the village war memorial in 1921.

His name will have to be placed on the Brookwood Memorial in Surrey due to the fact we can’t locate his place of burial.

On the basis of the evidence provided here we feel it is entirely correct and proper to approve this case. To deny this man a commemoration would be extremely harsh based purely on the grounds we couldn’t trace his death. We appeal to you to look at the wider picture and take into account the other facts which in our opinion proves “on the balance of probability” that he is entitled to be commemorated by the country he gave his life for…

Thank you.

Neil

6. UDEN J

Lympne War Memorial

Lympne School War Memorial

Private 495038 (formerly Bugler 1096) John (Jack) UDEN. 82nd Field Ambulance, Formerly known as the 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance (2nd HCFA). Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC). Died sometime between February 1919 and January 1921. Born Quarter 3, 1890 Hythe, Kent (Elham District). Resided 3 Alma Place, Alma Street, Canterbury, Kent. Enlisted 27 February 1912 at Shorncliffe Camp, Folkestone, Kent. Son of Frederick Stephen Uden and Elizabeth Uden of Uden Butchers Shop, 14 High Street, Hythe, Kent. Place of Burial – Unknown.

Educated Lympne village school, Lympne, Kent. His name is commemorated on the schools civic tribute there as well as the main village war memorial. In 2006 the Lympne County Primary School burnt down to the ground and the old school plaque commemorating the ex boys lost in the Great War was completely destroyed! The only monument now bearing Jack’s name is the local parish civic war memorial.

It appears that John may have been married. We have identified two possible marriages here –

Elsie M DURRANCE from Dover. Daughter of Henry and Fanny Durrance of 82 Longfield Road, Dover, Kent. Her father came from Canterbury and was a Cooper in a brewery. On the 1901 census she was only 3 years of age which makes her birth circa 1898. Maried a John Uden 3rd Quarter of 1919 Canterbury area (where John was living).

We can’t trace the death of John’s wife which may suggest that she remarried after John died.

Discharged 16 February 1919 (Para XVI, Kings Regs) No longer Fit for War Service. His service papers state he was discharged with – MALARIA! Jack was awarded a 20% Disability War Pension on 17 February 1919 by the Ministry of Pensions. The award was due to be re-assessed 26 weeks later which indicates his condition was not stable and was in fact likely to get even worse. In any case poor John was dead very soon afterwards…

The Lympne Civic War Memorial was erected in January 1921 and Jack’s name was placed on it alongside all the other men (Jack’s name appears between two other local men). This is proof that Jack died between the date of his discharge from the army on 17 February 1919 and 1921 when the memorial was erected.

Jack resided at 3 Alma Place, Alma Street, in Canterbury. His name does NOT appear on the Canterbury city civic tribute which is surprising! Note – before 1912 the 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance was based in Canterbury. In 1912 it moved to the Buffs Drill Hall, Ashford. The fact Jack served in the RAMC may have had something to do with him living there. Jack had obviously left the Hythe/Lympne areas before the outbreak of war. His parents continued to reside in Hythe or Lympne which would account for his name going forward for the village tribute.

Jack was a regular (professional) soldier in the Royal Army Medical Corps and on the outbreak of war was sent to the local RAMC (V) Territorial Force unit in Ashford to help out. The 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance was originally a Canterbury Based Territorial Force RAMC unit, it moved to Ashford’s Buffs Drill Hall in 1912. On 22 December 1914 Jack landed in France with his unit. After the war he was awarded the 1915 Star (which denotes he served in the first months of the war), British War Medal and Victory Medal. Jack served in two appointments – as a Bugler then as a Cook.

According to MS OH Vol 4 the 82nd Field Ambulance landed France 22 December 1914 with the 27th Division. They left Europe for Salonika 28 November 1915.

RAMC Medal Roll References

101/B63 Page 4,830

Jack’s parents were local to Kent. His father was born in Hythe and his mother in Dover. The rest of the family (all their children) were all born in Hythe. We think that his parents resided in Lympne after the war ended and that they ensured his name was placed on the parish tribute and Lympne village School memorial plaque after he died (as a direct result of his war service).

1901 Census

14 High Street, Hythe, Kent (Butchers)

Frederick UDEN 44 Butchers Shopkeeper

Elizabeth 44

Eleanor 18

Frederick 17

Harry 15

William 13

JACK 11

Joy 9

May 7

Kate 5

Albert 2

The following members of the Uden family are buried locally in Lympne Churchyard –

Sally Emma Elizabeth UDEN

Died: 25 January 1954

Aged: 76

Frederick Aaron UDEN Jack’s Brother Frederick?

Died: 26 April 1966

Aged: 88

Charles UDEN

Died: November 1911

Aged: 71

Abigail UDEN

Died: 26 February 1915

Born: 3 October 1839

Aged: 76

Frank UDEN

1891 Census:

14 High St, Hythe

UDEN Frederick S, Head, 32, Butcher, born Hythe ("Frederic Stephen" b Elham Q4 1856, "Frederick Steven" m Q3 1881, "Frederick Stephen" d Q1 1938, age 81)

UDEN Elizabeth D, Wife, 32, born Dover (Elizabeth Dunkin GILLMAN, b Dover Q4 1856, m Q3 1881)

UDEN Frederick D [sic], Son, 6 (Frederick Charles, b Q1 1884, m Elizabeth Alice AHERN in Dover Q3 1908)

UDEN Harry, Son, 4 (b Q3 1886)

UDEN William, Son, 2 (b Q3 1889, m Violet M HILLS Q3 1915)

UDEN John, Son, 6 months (b Q4 1890, poss. m Dorothy E WILKINS Q4 1921)

UDEN Eleanor L, Dau, 9 (Eleanor Lilian b Q3 1882, m Arthur WOODS Q1 1915)

WEBB Frederick, Lodger, 19, Butcher's Assistant, born Canterbury

CHEESEMAN Bertha E, Servant, 16, Servant Domestic, born Lenham

(all BMDs in Elham RD unless otherwise specified!)

As the 1891 census was taken on 5/4/1891, this John must have been born around October 1890, which tallies with the birth registration above.

1901 Census:

14 High St, Hythe

UDEN Frederick, Head, 44, Butcher/Shopkeeper, born Hythe

UDEN Elizabeth, Wife, 44, born Dover

UDEN Eleanor, Dau, 18

UDEN Frederick, Son, 17

UDEN Harry, Son, 14

UDEN William, Son, 13

UDEN Jack, Son, 11

UDEN Ivy, Dau, 9 (b Q1 1892, d Q3 1918 age 25)

UDEN May, Dau, 7 (b Q3 1894, m William H CANNON in West Ashford Q2 1925)

UDEN Kate, Dau, 5 (b Q4 1896)

UDEN Albert, Son, 2 (Albert Edward, b Q4 1898, m Annie M CLOKE Q3 1924)

There are two interesting marriage records:

Marriages Q4 1921 in Elham - UDEN John to WILKINS Dorothy E (2a 2797)

(Possibly Dorothy Emma WILKINS, born Elham Q2 1898)

No idea if this is him, but there are no other plain John UDENs in Elham that fit the bill (though you say he was living in Canterbury?). If this is him, then he probably outlived the deadline for CWGC commemoration. I can find no children from this marriage.

Then there's this:

Marriages Q3 1924 in Medway - UDEN Dorothy E to MORRIS Alan S (2a 1933)

(Alan Stanley MORRIS, b Medway Q4 1900)

This *could* perhaps be a recently widowed Mrs John UDEN remarrying, or it could just as well be the first marriage of Dorothy Ellen UDEN, born Strood RD, Q2 1904.

Jack had obviously left the Hythe/Lympne areas before the outbreak of war. His parents continued to reside in Hythe or Lympne which would account for his name going forward for the village tribute. Note that Jack was educated in the Lympne Village School too so he must have resided there at some stage during his childhood probably after leaving Hythe where his father owned a Butchers Shop in the High Street.

The family was at 14 High St, Hythe, until at least 1903, as the father Frederick Stephen UDEN is listed there in Kelly's Directory of Kent 1903.

He must have retired some time after, however, because Kelly's Directory of Kent 1913 shows him as a farmer at Pennypot Farm, Dymchurch Road, West Hythe. (Which is close enough to Lympne for young Jack to walk to school!)

This ties in with:

http://www.doverwarmemorialproject.org.uk/...I/SurnamesA.htm under "Ahern, H W"

"One of the other sisters became Mrs Youden, of Penny Pot Farm, Hythe". This was Elizabeth Alice AHERN, who married Jack's eldest brother Frederick Charles in Dover, Q3 1908. Note the spelling YOUDEN - maybe another avenue of investigation...?

[Terry Denham]

Chris

I have to say that neither of those things are actually quite correct.

There are several cases where the date of death is unknown in the CWGC database and I have submitted many cases without a DC. Where a DC does not exist, other documentation will be considered.

[Neil Clark]

I thought instead of using Chris as my personal messenger I would make the effort to clarify this case. I shall not be posting here again -

Yes I too have submited cases without a DC and the service authorities have made a positive adjudication taking into account the circumstances. Casualties whose names appear on the First World War Army, Army Officers and Navy War Deaths GRO index do not require a DC, all that you need to do here is to prove their name appears on the index. There are a few other sets of circumstances where a DC is not necessary but in all cases the fact a man DIED must be proven.

This case is HUGELY HUGELY different! - I submited this case to the MoD with a set of service papers, a Medal Index Card, the results of a few Census searches and finally his name on the local village war memorial. That is all. I never found a date of death and no document found records a death. The MoD tell me they couldn't find any reference to this man's death either.

They have approved this commemoration on the basis of my letter asking to consider the circumstances of his death and make an informed judgement using the civil test "On the balance of Probability". They arrived at this adjudication after taking the following facts into account -

1. His name appears on 2 village civic memorials

2. His service papers list that he was discharged with Malaria

3. His name was placed on the village tribute in 1921 (between 2 other men, so it was not a later addition).

NO PROOF OF DEATH PROVIDED!

In my book thats a pretty important development and goes to show that finally the service authorities are starting to use a sensible degree of discretion. More important is the fact that casualties are now being given the benefit of any doubt which is the right thing to do...

This is the first case of it's type and Maria Choules (CWGC) has confirmed that to me, even she was surprised by the approval. This is certainly the first case I have submited where I couldn't prove the man actually died before the cut off date (although using a sensible degree of discretion it's obvious he died before 1921 as a consequence of his war service).

It's a pity that the Navy and RAF aren't making sensible adjudications like this one. The last time I pointed out the Balance of Probability thing to them they couldn't understand the difference with "Beyond Reasonable Doubt"! What a bunch of losers! The MoD Army deserve our congratulation...

This is indeed a new precedent and in my book it's one to welcome...

[Hywyn]

Yes I too have submited cases without a DC and the service authorities have made a positive adjudication taking into account the circumstances. Casualties whose names appear on the First World War Army, Army Officers and Navy War Deaths GRO index do not require a DC, all that you need to do here is to prove their name appears on the index. There are a few other sets of circumstances where a DC is not necessary but in all cases the fact a man DIED must be proven.

Neil

Congatulations on both getting this commemration and the significant precedent it sets.

I realise you say that you will not be posting againg but I must query the above re the Overseas Index and the fact that no DC is needed. I have obtained one in the past and, indeed, funding for DC purchases has been obtained for the IFTC project unless I've misunderstood something. I'm now confused as to the necessity.

Hywyn

[Terry Denham]

Hywyn

Your original idea is correct. The certificate is required and mere presence in the index is not good enough on its own.

The Index is riddled with errors which do not appear on the certificates. Also, names appear in the Index who did not die. Certificates were originally produced for many men who later turned up alive and the certificates were later cancelled. However, the Index was never amended.

I suspect what Neil meant was that you do not have to get the certificate if other official evidence exists.

[John_Hartley]

I'm now confused as to the necessity.

Hywyn

I agree that appearance in the GRO list should be sufficient evidence that a man died (although we have found that the name details, etc on the list are not always what's on the death certificate). That's probably reason enough to get the actual certificate so a man's name, etc can be accurately commemorated. However, the DC is the only document which will confirm date of death - a significant part of the commemoration if it's possible to secure to it.

John

[Hywyn]

John

I see your point re the date which will not be provided in the GRO index

Terry

I see you point re the other official evidence.

I'll view things on a case by case basis then.

Thanks

Hywyn