Russia

[kelvintruss]

Recognising this site is for the Great War, does anyone know of a similar forum where I can pursue research into Machine Gun Corps activity (8 Bn I think) in Russia in 1919?

[RFT]

Hello Kelt

I have a few facts and figures on the machine-gun training schools (British Military Mission, South Russia), if you feel this may be of use in your research.

Rob

[MartH]

Hi Kelt

Do a search on the subject, its been discussed.

[SiegeGunner]

I stand to be corrected, but the Great War did not officially end until 1921 and I believe that British involvement in Russia pre- and immediately post-1918 is considered to be 'on topic' here.

[kelvintruss]

Thanks all, I'll carry on then! Albert left a very basic diary of his time in Russia if anyine's interested. For my part, he names places that don't appear on maps - a function of his poor spelling and changes over Russia's recent history - but I would like to map out where he went. Perhaps if I reproduced his scribblings here someone might be able to add some specialist knowledge to fill out the picture? I'll get typing...

[kelvintruss]

As discussed, here is Albert's diary. I would like to validate the ship names, identify the dead referred to and locate the places mentioned, although most I suspect are mis-spelt eg Nigs Palinga, Tropsy(Tropry), Tvoitra, Kurganan, Tmolly Camp, Olga brracks

Diary of Pte Albert George Crisp MGC 11 May 1919 to 6 July 1919 and 23 Sept 1919 to 8 Oct 1919

In his own words and spelling

Sun 11 May

Starting for Russia

Mon 12^th

Left Crowbroug on Monday morning reaching Newcastle at dinner time. Stayed in Newcastle

Tues 13^th

Left harbor 12.45

Anchored in mid ocean ready for sailing 3am Wednesday

Wed 14^th

Started to sail at 3am, held up by fog in very calm water. Anchored all night.

Thurs 15^th

Entered Arctic Sea, very rough. Passed floating mine 50 ards from ship were fired at and missed.

Fri 16^th

Sister ship Czaritza passed us which set off from Southampton. Sea very calm, know land seen.

Sat 17^th

Sea very rough, boat rocked terribly, no land seen

Sun 18^th

Know land seen, sea very rough

Mon 19^th

Passing along the coasts of Norway, Sweden and Finland, coasts covered in snow. Sea still very rough. No darkness.

Tues 20^th

Arrived Murmansk 3am and anchored all day, nothing to see but hills and snow.

Wed 21^st

Out rowing around the ship

No darkness

Thurs 22^nd

Went ashore into Murmansk, nothing to see but wooden huts and all the civilians were refugees.

Fri 23^rd

Boat race between the men of the Czaritza and the Czar also officers. Officers of the Czaritza won.

Sat 24^th Left Murmansk 6.30 with four other ships and two ice breakers to sail for Archangel. One day good sailing.

Sat 25^th

Entire white sea all frozen, all ships are unable to move through ice being so thick 3.55am

Mon 26^th

Still breaking through the ice

Tues 27^th

Arrived Archangel with all the other ships and received a great reception from the Russia civilians. Also all the boats on the river were decorated with flags.

Wed 28^th

All the Brigade marched through the town of Archangel, the streets all being decorated with flags, and a great amount of civilians and Russian soldiers to welcome us.

Thurs 29^th

After leaving the ship to Tmolly camp into huts

Fri 30^th

Inspected by General Ironsides who was in command of the Relief Force

Sat 31^st

Military funeral held in Archangel, one of DLI killed in town.

Sat 1^st June

Church parade in town by all the brigade

Mon 2^nd

Moved from Tmolly Camp to Olga Barracks

Tues 3^rd

Large march past in town, also the TBL were presented with colours given by General Grogan

Wed 4^th

Went to pictures in the American YMCA

Thurs 5^th

Went across the river Aztirkab to hand in surplus harness

Fri 6^th

Received first pay in Russian Reubols

Sat 7^th

Battalion moved off for the line on barges up the river leaving all transport till later

Sun 8^th

Loading barges for the battalion

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Mon 9^th

Battalion drawn 54 mules, also pack saddlery.

Tues 10^th

Received the first mail June 10^th

Wed 11^th

Loaded transport ? ? ready to sail Thursday, and also the mules

Thurs 12^th

Left Archangel to sail up the river towards the line of barge with mules, and also brigade artillery.

Fri 13^th

Went ashore for exercise also gathered wood for the barge, stayed for 3 hours

Sat 14^th

Sailed all day and passed troops on the way back to Archangel

Sun 15^th

Arrived at the Battalion and went up to join C Coy to help in the line

Mon 16^th

Arrived C Coy 8am and heard the first Bolshie shells come over

Tues 17^th

Preparing to proceed to the line for an attack

Wed 18^th

Rested all day to move off early morning

Thurs 19^th

Left Kurganan for Tropry at 4.30am. Marched through the forest for the line arrived 12pm. Road being very dark through forest and very boggy, having one mule drowned and arrived wet through.

Fri 20^th

Barrage started 4am which proved successful and then marched back to a captured village called Tropry. A while after arriving the Bolshies counterattacked but were repulsed with heavy losses

Sat 21^st

Received a warm welcome by the civilians of Tropry and were given beds for rest being the first English troops seen there.

Sun 22^nd

Rest all day

Mon 23^rd

Went into woods searching for Bolshies and found four

Tues 24^th

Transport officer from the Hants buried in Tropry who was wounded by a bullet which pierced through his back and out his stomach

Wed 25^th

All men out of the villages were sent to join the Russian Army and were sent down the river to go away by barge

Thur 26^th

Received the first bead ration since we left England, being six into a loaf

Fri 27^th

Received a mail at Tropry

Sat 28^th

Handed all mules to ASC

Sun 29^th

Moved from Tropsy to Tvoitra

Mon 30^th

Burial of an Artillery man who was sniped in the wood near Tvoitra

Tues 1^st

Minesweeper blown up by mine on the river Dvina

Wed 2^nd

Moved from the village of Tvoitra down on to the riverside

Thurs 3^rd

Minesweeper blown up by mine close by where we were waiting for a barge to go down the river

Fri 4^th

Naval man buried in Tvoitra churchyard who died after the minesweeper were blown up

Sat 5^th

Exercised the mules around Tropsy

Sun 6^th

Got on the barge at 3am and left at 4 pm

Tues 23^rd September

Started to sail down the Dvina by barge for Archangel, sailed all night

Wed 24th

Stopped on riverside for wood near Ustpinega

Thurs 25^th

Sent back to Nigs Palinga and stayed all day and night

Fri 26^th

Left Nigs and landed Archangel and saw the Manital

Sat 27^th

Got on to the Manital and sailed about dusk, and picked up A and B Company in mid stream

Sun 28^th

Passed Murmansk, sea very rough

Mon 29^th

No land seen sea very rough

Tues 30^th

Passed mountains covered in snow and came through snow and hail storms

Wed 1^st October

Passed the Burma Castle and Czaritza. Sea very rough.

Thurs 2^nd

No land seen, rained all day and a very rough wind

Fri 3^rd

Passed the Awkney and Shetland islands, sea very calm

Sat 4^th

Called at Carno? And awaited orders which came to us by launch

Sun 5^th

Anchored out all night in mid-stream at Tilbury

Mon 6^th

Most of the troops disembark by ferries

Tues 7^th

Left Tilbury docks early morning and came down Thames to the Royal Albert docks to unload baggage

Wed 8^th

Started to unload early morning and finished late at night and then went Custom house station and from there to Purfleet and went into the dispersal camp

[Andrew Hesketh]

A recent thread asked about widening the allowance for requests 'related' to but not directly concerning the Great War. In the response it was explained that there was already some flexibility for this, and the question of Russia in 1919 is a very good example of a 'related' topic that is perfectly valid. As Mart says it has cropped up before and SG's comments are accurate.

So, do carry on, but thank you for asking.

[Pat Twomey]

Hi Kelt,

Thanks for sharing the very interesting diary of Albert Crisp. My guess would be that some of the mispelt names refer to Kurgomen (Kurganan), Topsa (Tropry), Troitsa (Tvoitra) and Ust Pinega remains as is. Sorry I cannot help you with the Soldiers who were killed but I will check a few books that I have and keep you informed if anything comes up.

Bolos and Barishynas by Singleton-Gates is available here

http://www.archive.org/stream/bolosbarishy...rich_djvu.txtou

and you might find something there.

Best of Luck

Pat

[laughton]

Most certainly Russia and Serbia post 1919 are in the Great War. CWGC says the end was set at August 31, 1921.

There are good details of what happened in Russia and Serbia in the Canadian Great War History that certainly includes the actions of other nations.

Read Pages 511-523

[kelvintruss]

Saly that link isn't working Pat - any other ideas?

Kelvin

Hi Kelt,

Thanks for sharing the very interesting diary of Albert Crisp. My guess would be that some of the mispelt names refer to Kurgomen (Kurganan), Topsa (Tropry), Troitsa (Tvoitra) and Ust Pinega remains as is. Sorry I cannot help you with the Soldiers who were killed but I will check a few books that I have and keep you informed if anything comes up.

Bolos and Barishynas by Singleton-Gates is available here

http://www.archive.org/stream/bolosbarishy...rich_djvu.txtou

and you might find something there.

Best of Luck

Pat

[Pat Twomey]

Saly that link isn't working Pat - any other ideas?

Kelvin

Try here

http://www.archive.org/details/bolosbarishynasb00singrich

if this doesn't work go to www.archive.org and search texts by using the word bolos - if this fails send me a pm and I can send on the pdf file of the book.

Best of luck

Pat