Turkish Artillery in Gallipoli

[Guest _KaaN_]

Hello,

First of all, I would like to say "Hi", as I'm a newbie around.. This forum seems great and filled with knowledge. I'm from Turkey and I've been reading about Gallipoli for sometime.

Now,the question;

I found some pictures labeled as "355mm Krupp Gun in Gallipoli" and also a list of artillery in Gallipoli. In the list there were two 355/35,also one 355/22 Krupp guns deployed in Çimenlik. And two more 355/35 Krupp deployed in Rumeli Hamidiye.

Also I read an article about these guns and the numbers in the list are the same with the article.

Did Krupp factory build 355mm Guns at the time?? I know they could have built but I know only one incident about it and no one mentions about Turkish Goverments requests for these guns.

I'm now posting the pics of these guns and the list and ask for your help.

[Guest _KaaN_]

These pictures are from the navyingallipoli site:

Krupp's 355/35 cannon in Anadolu Hamidiye Fort:

Krupp's 355/35 cannon form one of the Dardanelles forts on the exposition of the Military Museum at Harbiye in Istanbul:

Also check out these photos: Are they 355mm??

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?G...e7c915e6e&size=

http://www.hpphoto.com/servlet/LinkPhoto?G...d2bb33469&size=

Best Regards!

Kaan

[duckman]

Hi KaaN and welcome,

A possible answer for you. Krupp developed 14" (35.5cm) guns for the Mackensen class Battlecruisers, which werre laid down in 1915. Not sure of the barrel length. It may have been that a couple of spares were shipped to Turkey?

Will provide more info when I've been to the library. I never seem to have these sources to hand when I want them...

[Guest richpics5174]

Hi Kaan,

Would your source also have a map to go with that battery listing? A friend of mine online mentioned in passing he was interested in finding the battery locations of the Turkish guns in Gallipoli because he was simulating the attack on March 18 (w/c is, strangely enough, TODAY!! hows that for irony) by the British and French fleets. Western sources are easy enough to acquire but he is at a loss for Turkish forces and I think this info would help him.

Thanks very much,

Richard Picton

[ozgur]

If you want I can go to university library and get the official history of Turkish Army. as far as I remember it has a very detailed map showing calibres and deployment of the guns prior to naval action.

Hi Kaan. where do you live?

[Guest _KaaN_]

Hi Özgür,

I live in Izmir,where do you live? It would be great if you could provide info about the calibres!

Hi Richard,

Not from the same source but let me post two maps of Naval actions in Galiipoli. One in Turkish for your friend to chack the places from the map, the second one in English to repleace the place names.

Duckman,

Thanks, that would be very nice of you if you can have a look in the library.

Best Regards!

Kaan

[ozgur]

Kaan,

I live in Izmir too; working in Ege University. maybe we can talk on phone.

I will get the book and scan the relevant map. It is very detailed indeed.

Regards

Ozgur

[Guest Pete Wood]

Well you guys sure know plenty about the Turkish forces in Gallipoli. Kaan, I've just spent a great half hour looking at your posts on the 'other' forum; excellent stuff

I wonder if you have as much information on the Turkish forces in Palestine and Mesopotamia.....?? If so, we can also have some good discussions on Kut and Gaza etc.

[duckman]

A possible answer for you. Krupp developed 14" (35.5cm) guns for the Mackensen class Battlecruisers

Hi KaaN,

Correction, the guns for the Mackensen were 35.0cm (13.75").

I know I'm reaching here, but are you sure that these were made by Krupp?

The only reference I can find to 35.5cm Krupp guns was in relation to the long range guns used on the western Front. Some of these started out at 38cm and tapered to 35.5.

The Austrians had spare 14 inchers though. 35.5 cm guns were fabricated for the Ersatz Monarch class, which was planned to be laid down in 1914. The outbreak of war caused the cancellation of the class and some of those guns were later used on the Italian Front.

[ozgur]

Bad news gents. I visited university library today. unfortunately the book showing gun positions and calibres is in use. I will look for it and post in the forums.

Ozgur

[Guest _KaaN_]

I guess we'll have to wait. Thanks for looking by the way. I will also check the Library in Konak, I heard about some books about Gallipoli Straits.

I still couldnt find any sources about Krupp producing 355mm(14'') Guns.

Hi duckman,

I'm only depending on my refences in my hand. One is Bloody Ridge Diary, memoirs of Mehmed Fasih. Also an article of Piotr Nykiel. I've read an article of G.S. Patton,Jr. about the Defense of Gallipoli, they both mention about the guns and their deployments are the same with map.

Someone has any photos of 355mm Guns? Maybe we can compare them to the ones I posted.

Racing teapots,

Thanks for your comments. Check out that thread as I update it weekly Also I have some books about Palestine and Mesopotamia but I cant find time to read. I would galdy share the info in them with you

Best Regards!

Kaan

[Dave Alton]

Hello, this is my first post on the board, although I have been 'lurking' about for some time. I have an interest in most aspects of WW1, but particularly the naval campaigns and the 'sideshows'.

I have some information about the Ottoman coast defence guns which may be of interest.

All of the /35 cal guns, both 14" (35.5cm) and 9.4" (24cm) were Krupp built guns and installed in the late 1880s.

The older guns of either /22 or /26 calibres, were also Krupp designs, these were installed in the mid 1870s.

The table from the navyingallipoli site doesn't show all the guns in the Dardanelles defences, only those engaged on 18 March 1915. On this date the large calibre guns in the defences were, 5-14"/35, 1-14"/22, 4-11"/22, 5-10.8"/22, 13-9.4"/35, 17-9.4"/22, 4-8.3"/22, 8-8.3" Morser, 3-5.9"/40, 5-6"/45, 14-5.9"/22 and 32-5.9" howitzers. There were many other smaller guns covering the minefields

The most acurate map of the batteries is the one in the German book 'Halbmund and Kaiseradler' by Bernd Langensiepen. Hopefully I have attached a copy of this, note however that this shows all the batteries, including those destroyed by the Allies in Feb 1915 (nos. 1, 2, 39 & 40) and others installed by the Germans and Ottomans (nos. 33, 34 & 38) after the assault of March 1915.

Rgds

Dave

[ozgur]

Kaan,

When you have time to visit the national library in Konak look for the book "Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi: Çanakkale Savaşı 1. Kitap" . there are some excellent maps in it.

Ozgur

[Guest _KaaN_]

Fantastic information and map Dave! Thanks a million!

Ozgur,

I guess the book you mention is published by GenelKurmay yayınevi?

Regards

Kaan

[ozgur]

Fantastic information and map Dave! Thanks a million!

Ozgur,

I guess the book you mention is published by GenelKurmay yayınevi?

Regards

Kaan

Yes

[Guest richpics5174]

Do you guys think that the Fleet could really have 'won the war' by sailing through the straits and threatening or actually bombarding Constantinople? I'm just curious what you guys think of this controversy. I've read lots of arguments about it and I'm wondering what you guys think.

Richard Picton

[ozgur]

Do you guys think that the Fleet could really have 'won the war' by sailing through the straits and threatening or actually bombarding Constantinople? I'm just curious what you guys think of this controversy. I've read lots of arguments about it and I'm wondering what you guys think.

Richard Picton

There are many analysis on this aspect. to put it simply I do think allied fleet was not able to passfrom the strait. The problem was that there was not enough maneuvring space in tha channel. So in order make evasive moves allied fleet had to advance with four ships lines. Turkish mines paralel to the coast made maneuvre much more difficult. Their superior range was helpful in the mouth of the strait which is considerably wide but when they closed the narrow kilid bahir sector they encountered an intensive bombardment from every calibre of gun.

as another disadvantage allied fleet had to form column in order to pass kilid bahir which means when a battleship succesfully passes the narrow sector all of the batteries from Turkish battleships (Yavuz, Mesudiye) waiting behind kilid bahir and coastal batteries can direct their fire into one ship. The odds were considerably against the allied fleet. So I think a naval operation without the support of land operation was destined to fail.

Ozgur

[Guest richpics5174]

Granted forcing the straits would not be the same deal as when Duckworth tried it in the 1800's but for the sake of argument let's say the Fleet gets through - sacrifices all the old ships to let the QE get in while Souchon sails the Yavus into the Black Sea to give her room to maneuver (or escape!) and QE and the survivors sail into the Sea of Marmara and thence to Constantinople. What happens next?

Richard Picton

[Guest _KaaN_]

I believe they would want Ottomans to surrender. They may try to use force to make Ottomans surrender, such as bombing the capital. But the Ottomans did have a plan if the Fleet went through the Straits. Istanbul(Constantinople) had defenses similiar to the ones in Dardanelles, I guess the Allied Fleet would have some problems while bombing the city. Also Goverment decided to move the capital to an eastern city if the Allied push was successful in the Straits. One possibility is that the same thing would happen in Constantinople, if the fleet fails to achieve victory with bombing the capital, they may have landed soldiers.

But all these are just my guesses..

Regards

Kaan

[ozgur]

Granted forcing the straits would not be the same deal as when Duckworth tried it in the 1800's but for the sake of argument let's say the Fleet gets through - sacrifices all the old ships to let the QE get in while Souchon sails the Yavus into the Black Sea to give her room to maneuver (or escape!) and QE and the survivors sail into the Sea of Marmara and thence to Constantinople. What happens next?

Richard Picton

Even in this case it I think it was unlikely to force Ottoman Government out of the war. Militarily the allied fleets presence in Marmara Sea was not sustainable ( I am again assuming allies didnt consolidate their forces with a lan operation in Dardanelles). There were many german submarines in Marmara which will constantly threaten fleet which do not have enough operational space to evade. Dardanelles opeartion shows us what happens when battleships are bounded to certain sectors for land bombardment while there is enemy submarine activity around.

Besides, as Kaan mentioned the defensive belt of Bosphorus was as strong as Dardenelles sector.

But another stimulating question would be; what if QE forces her way into marmara and Souchon decides to commit Yavuz into action. Probably Yavuz would have had little chance against a superdreadnought but it would have been a scene to watch.

Ozgur

[Dave Alton]

If I could make few comments re the naval assaults.

The allied naval force provided wasn’t adequate for the task, the defences were far stronger than realised, the oft-repeated myth of Ottoman ammunition shortages, was just that, a myth. Although there weren’t massive supplies of shells, there were at least 36,000 shells of all calibres still available after the attack on 18 March. Only about 2300 had been fired by the defenders during this attack.

The minesweeping force was very inadequate, and any attempts to use destroyers – as has often been suggested, would very likely have resulted in heavy losses to them. Minesweeping techniques in 1915 were simply not up to the task of clearing minefields the density of those in the Dardanelles, while under heavy fire.

Even if the Narrows had been forced, the Queen Elizabeth would not have entered the Marmora, there were strict orders from the Admiralty that she not to be risked in the passage of the Narrows, also even if she had permission, QE had suffered a serious turbine failure on the way to the Dardanelles and was limited to a max speed of 18k and her manoeuvrability was reduced. It was anticipated that the Goeben/Yavuz would be engaged by Inflexible and the semi-dreadnoughts Agamemnon and Lord Nelson.

Goeben/Yavuz had been damaged by two Russian mines in December 1914 and was under repair, but if the allied naval forces had broken through, she would have defended the southern end of the Bosphorus from behind a minefield.

There were no u-boats in Ottoman waters at the time of the Naval assaults, the first U-boat, the U21, didn’t arrive until late May.

Even if the allied navies had reached Istanbul what could they have done? They had only their naval landing parties and there 5 Ottoman Army corps in Thrace – with some of the best divisions of the Ottoman army.

Dave

[ozgur]

Thanks for the excellent evaluation Dave. I didnt know there wasnt any uboat in Marmara.

You are quite right about the ammunition stocks. One of my Turkish resources say 40000 rounds of ammunition was ready before the war and only less than 3000 of them fired in the naval action.

I found another info on 35mm guns for the mackensen class cruisers. After the discontinuation of the mackensen class all of the primary guns were deployed in Flanders in 1917. So there cant be any o them in the straits. Besides most of the heavy cannons were deployed during the last years of the 1800s.

Ozgur

[duckman]

Ozgur,

My bad. As noted, I was hazarding a guess - Daves excellent reply confirms that the Mackensen guns were not part of the picture.

Fascinating discussion. But riddle me this - if there was no prospect for a successful attack on Constantinople (existing shore batteries, U-boats) and no chance of a landing, what on earth were they doing there?

Seems like the best they could have done was sink the Yavuz and fight their way out again. Unless the planners were convinced that the fleet arriving there would have been enough to force the Ottoman Empire out of the war.

[Guest richpics5174]

First off a lot of my question's premise is based on the writings of Moorhead where he states that Constantinople was on the brink of revolutions with the Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, even a number of Turks wanting to throw off the Young Turks. Also the only military arsenals were at the capital so any attempt at holding out elsewhere would be surrendering the military infrastructure to the Allies. So lets say that the fleet gets there and after receiving a rebuff or silence does a Mers El Kebir on the city of Constantinople. Is there an uprising? Panic? Who takes advantage of it? Etc.

As for the QE vs Goeben/Yavus, yet that would have been a sight. I think Souchon would have run like heck if he knew what was good for him even if the QE's speed was down - those ships were built to LAST - Warspite survived all the way till the end of WW2 in constant action (Yavus survived longer but wasn't exactly involved the way Warspite was) and perhaps the one thing that could put those babies under were torpedoes or mines (Barham, QE at Alex). A match up between Inflexible and Yavus, even with Lord Nelson and Agamemnon (who are they kidding, those things would be as worthwhile to Inflexible as Canopus was to Craddock) would not look pretty I think. I'm thinking "somethings wrong with our bloody ships" sort of thing. So it really would depend on Souchon whether he wants to run where he stands a good chance of getting away (but to where??) or fight where he can inflict damage but will eventually be caught in a Langsdorff-like dilemma.

Richard Picton

[Guest richpics5174]

First off a lot of my question's premise is based on the writings of Moorhead where he states that Constantinople was on the brink of revolutions with the Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, even a number of Turks wanting to throw off the Young Turks. Also the only military arsenals were at the capital so any attempt at holding out elsewhere would be surrendering the military infrastructure to the Allies. So lets say that the fleet gets there and after receiving a rebuff or silence does a Mers El Kebir on the city of Constantinople. Is there an uprising? Panic? Who takes advantage of it? Etc.

OR are all of Moorhead's statements or at least some based on Allied myths/wishful thinking?

As for the QE vs Goeben/Yavus, yet that would have been a sight. I think Souchon would have run like heck if he knew what was good for him even if the QE's speed was down - those ships were built to LAST - Warspite survived all the way till the end of WW2 in constant action (Yavus survived longer but wasn't exactly involved the way Warspite was) and perhaps the one thing that could put those babies under were torpedoes or mines (Barham, QE at Alex). A match up between Inflexible and Yavus, even with Lord Nelson and Agamemnon (who are they kidding, those things would be as worthwhile to Inflexible as Canopus was to Craddock) would not look pretty I think. I'm thinking "somethings wrong with our bloody ships" sort of thing. So it really would depend on Souchon whether he wants to run where he stands a good chance of getting away (but to where??) or fight where he can inflict damage but will eventually be caught in a Langsdorff-like dilemma.

Richard Picton