21RGA Posted 7 January , 2009 Share Posted 7 January , 2009 Hi there one and all, and congratulations on a knowledgeable and well run forum. As a new member, I am looking for information concerning the 21st Heavy Battery RGA in WWI. My grandfather volunteered with them in September 1914 and was killed with them in July 1916, on the Somme. I would like to trace the progress of his Battery. I have gleaned pieces of information from the library and internet, but specifics are hard to come by. On the Divisional Units website, it says 21st Heavy Battery RGA were 'a Battery of 4 60-lbr guns raised with the 21st Division but moved to XXII Heavy Artillery Brigade on formation.' I have been unable to verify this or find any reference to XXII HAB so need help. I would like to know any information concerning his 21st Heavy Battery and also the formation, make-up and whereabouts of XXII HAB during this time. Can anyone please help me? Thank you. David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 7 January , 2009 Share Posted 7 January , 2009 DC I have no hits on any of your titles in the WO95 War Diaries section of the National Archives. Other numbers around it but not 21 HB RGA. The list of Heavy Batteries in the RGA section of the Long Long Trail shows 21 as being in France though. It was part of 21 Division,and I have checked all the units in that Division's list of War Diaries and yours doesn't appear ! There must be an explanation somewhere ! You could try asking ORORKEP here,as he,among others, contributes on Artillery matters. Sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 7 January , 2009 Share Posted 7 January , 2009 Hello David, and welcome to the Forum. In 1914 a heavy battery formed part of each infantry division, and 21 HB was formed for 21 Div, but in early 1915 these batteries were withdrawn to form Heavy Brigades RGA which were Army Troops. Thus 21 HB did not actually serve abroad as part of 21 Div. These brigades, and the similar Siege Brigades, were reorganised in mid 1916 to form Heavy Artillery Groups which had variable compositions. At the end of 1917 the Groups were redesignated Brigades RGA and each had a settled composition from then on. Sotonmate is right in that there does not seem to be a War Diary for 21 HB, but the 22 Bde War Diary is in the National Archives at Kew in file WO95/389. Iy covers the period from June 1915, when it went to France with 21, 22 and 23 HBs, until June 1919. In November 1918, 21 HB was part of 1 Mobile Brigade RGA, in First Army. In Sep 1915, 22 Hy Bde was attached to I Corps, First Army for the Battle of Loos. It remained with I Corps until about April 1916 when it went to the newly formed Fourth Army, still with the same batteries, to prepare for the Battle of the Somme and was still with them in September. If you can get to Kew, have a look also at file WO95/5494, which lists all Heavy and Siege Batteries with details of which Brigasde or Group they were in throughout the war, but it looks as if all your grandfather's service would have been while the battery was in 22 Bde/Group. Good luck! Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 January , 2009 Share Posted 8 January , 2009 David, Glad to see you posted ok here. Was sure someone could offer help and direction in your quest. Good hunitng and let me know what you find Regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21RGA Posted 8 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2009 DC I have no hits on any of your titles in the WO95 War Diaries section of the National Archives. Other numbers around it but not 21 HB RGA. The list of Heavy Batteries in the RGA section of the Long Long Trail shows 21 as being in France though. It was part of 21 Division,and I have checked all the units in that Division's list of War Diaries and yours doesn't appear ! There must be an explanation somewhere ! You could try asking ORORKEP here,as he,among others, contributes on Artillery matters. Sotonmate Thank you Sotonmate, I appreciate your input. It now appears 21 HB went to the Western Front as part of 22 Heavy Artillery Brigade. I will follow up with ORORKEP as you suggest but must figure out how to do that first. Steep learning curve! Regards, David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 January , 2009 Share Posted 8 January , 2009 David, Go to members at top right of the page and search for his profile. Then once in his profile scroll down to the bottom left area and send him a PM (personel message) Regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21RGA Posted 8 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2009 Hello David, and welcome to the Forum. In 1914 a heavy battery formed part of each infantry division, and 21 HB was formed for 21 Div, but in early 1915 these batteries were withdrawn to form Heavy Brigades RGA which were Army Troops. Thus 21 HB did not actually serve abroad as part of 21 Div. These brigades, and the similar Siege Brigades, were reorganised in mid 1916 to form Heavy Artillery Groups which had variable compositions. At the end of 1917 the Groups were redesignated Brigades RGA and each had a settled composition from then on. Sotonmate is right in that there does not seem to be a War Diary for 21 HB, but the 22 Bde War Diary is in the National Archives at Kew in file WO95/389. Iy covers the period from June 1915, when it went to France with 21, 22 and 23 HBs, until June 1919. In November 1918, 21 HB was part of 1 Mobile Brigade RGA, in First Army. In Sep 1915, 22 Hy Bde was attached to I Corps, First Army for the Battle of Loos. It remained with I Corps until about April 1916 when it went to the newly formed Fourth Army, still with the same batteries, to prepare for the Battle of the Somme and was still with them in September. If you can get to Kew, have a look also at file WO95/5494, which lists all Heavy and Siege Batteries with details of which Brigasde or Group they were in throughout the war, but it looks as if all your grandfather's service would have been while the battery was in 22 Bde/Group. Good luck! Ron Thank you Ron, your knowledge amazes me! Kew is a bit difficult right now but I will keep the reference in mind. In the meantime, I will make use of your outline of 22 HAB's activities. It is very detailed and informative. Regards, David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21RGA Posted 8 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2009 David, Glad to see you posted ok here. Was sure someone could offer help and direction in your quest. Good hunitng and let me know what you find Regards Arm Thanks Arm, I appreciate the great lead you have given me - an impressive forum of knowledgeable and helpful enthusiasts! It seems 21HB went to the Western Front on 20 August 1915 as part of 22nd Heavy Artillery Brigade, transferring to various Heavy Artillery Groups from 1916 on (44th, 27th, 46th, 42nd) before ending up with the 1st Heavy Artillery Brigade. It was with I Corps at Loos and with the 4th Army at the Somme. You can follow my progress here and under Royal Garrison Artillery, and I will also endeavour to summarise once complete if you wish. I will also revisit your excellent 21st Division website. Regards, David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21RGA Posted 8 January , 2009 Author Share Posted 8 January , 2009 David, Go to members at top right of the page and search for his profile. Then once in his profile scroll down to the bottom left area and send him a PM (personel message) Regards Arm Thanks Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 8 January , 2009 Share Posted 8 January , 2009 As a follow up to your original question to me off forum, I can confirm that the war diaries of the Divisional Headquarters Artillery make no reference to this unit belonging. It had definitely left, if it ever technically joined, the division. Its part in Loos and in 1916 around Fricourt, where 21st division were involved, must be a coincidence. As the war diary only seems to start once they cross to active service there is no references to the unit whilst in Britain during the early days I am afraid. Regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jockthedog Posted 25 September , 2015 Share Posted 25 September , 2015 Hi its a bit after this topic started but I have been doing research into my wife's and my own family. I only just discovered that her grandfather Thomas Robb 44494 was in the 21st heavy battery RGA. I knew he was in the RGA as we have his medals. I did get his medal card which showed that he arrived in France on 21-8-15 was awarded the 15 Star, Victory and War medals. He was discharged class Z on 2-2-19. I have since found his short Attestation, VM and WM roll and his 15 Star roll and found his unit number. I, like the earlier posts, cannot find any details of his or his units' movements whilst in action other than in here and would be grateful for any information Regards Graham Forbes Lanark, UK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinrowlinson Posted 25 September , 2015 Share Posted 25 September , 2015 Hi Graham, The only diaries you can follow the battery with are the HAG/Brigade ones held at Kew. These are very slowly being released on line and of the 6 it was attached to only two are available at the moment; 42 HAG when it was with it from 27th Oct 1917 to 11th Dec 1917 and after that 1 Brigade onwards. Try http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/82052a5f331b4332b8c05b353fc47c03 and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/3740f435746b4b60bfdeec3217d685d4 and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/d55231ec10c54134ac7340d28b45e4a8 Using Discovery, on the Nat. Archives site, you can search for the other ones by just replacing each number for the HAG/Brigade by using (for the first one) "22 Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery". Hopefully these will not be too long in being made available. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 December , 2017 Share Posted 13 December , 2017 Hi David, I know less about the 21st HB RGA than you, but thought you might want to see this photograph. On Friday my 13 year old son goes to Belgium with his school to visit Ypres and the Somme for three days. Last night his dad brought out this photo of our son’s great grandfather Jack Lions who was with the 21st Heavy Brigade Royal Garrison Artillery. My husband had received the photograph from his mum many years ago. Jack survived the Great War and returned to his family in Hackney where he was later a park warden in Victoria Park. He used to have nightmares about the guns. Jack was very tall and we think he might be the tall man at the back behind the officers. It would be interesting to hear if anyone knows anything about this photograph I can share with my son and husband. It is going to be an eventful weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James A Pratt III Posted 22 December , 2017 Share Posted 22 December , 2017 RFC Communiques 1915-1916 has a rare mention of the RFC spotting for a heavy battery: 8 Oct 1915 Capt Babington and Lt Davies 2 Sqn spotted a hostile battery 5 howitzers engaged by 19 Siege battery and 21 heavy battery and silenced. later another hostile battery silenced by 21 Heavy battery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21RGA Posted 4 November , 2018 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2018 Thank you Graham, policewife and James, for your postings. Graham - your posting confirms the arrival of 21HB in France on 21 Aug 1915, and it seems to me quite likely that Thomas Robb would have known my grandfather - Gnr Albert Carr! Policewife - although the photo was taken c1918 and therefore after my grandfather's death, I believe I can take it as a confirmation that 21HB did in fact participate at Loos as well as the Somme where he died in 1916, valuable information in light of the lack of a War Diary. James - the RFC communique confirms the participation of 21HB in hostile action. Thank you all so much! David Carr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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