Firearms cartridges

[Michael]

We're having a discussion at work regarding the use of brass to manufacture shell cases and small arms cartridges.

A number of theories are being thrown around the power station about why it is used but can the ordnance experts please give us the definitive answer.

Our answeres so far are:

Metallurgical properties (ductility and tensile strength)

Resistance to corrosion

Cost

Ease of manufacture

Recyclability

Weight

Michael

[NIGEL]

You probably have it there-------if you were to use a mainly copper alloy ----copper is subject to sulphate growing all over it---although i have made a makeshift shotgun using ordinary copper tube from a plumbers merchant with different charges the copper tube never split or was i just lucky

As regard recycling on ships the empty brass cases were thrown over board and in the field i think recycling was the last thing they ever thought of and was probably done by the local people when the battle had finnished

The reason bullets were copper cased was because with modern powders the bullet travels at supersonic speeds and would distort up the barrel and after so would not be acurate

[Staffsyeoman]

Not being scientifically minded, but with some consumer's experience...

Pretty close; the top one is the best reasoning - to withstand the instantaneous massive pressures when fired. The cases could corrode - usually in contact with gas. Several accounts of the MGC discarding rounds attacked by gas, and the development of 'gasproof' ammunition crates.

Having lugged more than my share of crates I find it hard to believe it's on weight grounds, unless as punishment for infantrymen!!

On the whole, all right, though, with some criteria more than others

[PhilB]

Bearing in mind that it has to meet Michael`s criteria, can you suggest a better material, or one as good? Phil B

[Max Poilu]

in the field i think recycling was the last thing they ever thought of and was probably done by the local people when the battle had finnished

I believe quite the opposite was true. The manufacture of a shell case was hugely expensive and a typical 18 pdr case went through around 15-20 stages of manufacture. The tolerances were of course critical. All this led to the fact that after a battle, shell cases were very carefully collected and returned to the factories to be checked and re-used. If you look on the bottom of a British case you will often find a CF mark follwed by further F's - each indicates a re-fill of cordite.

Shell cases were not the only thing, after any battle (conditions permitting) the battle field would be scoured by salvage squads for any useful items.

Regarding the use of brass I think I remember reading that brass is also a very suitable material because of the way it expands after firing to seal the breech.

[NIGEL]

Well thats something i never knew giles-----in the films that i had seen sailors were throwing all the spent cases overboard and i always thought it was a waste but i never knew they got soldiers to collect empty cases

as for brass any soft metal that isnt subject to heat or splitting will do but if i remember right brass is a mixture of copper and zinc or tin------embarrassing really i went to collage to learn this stuff.

not sure about cordite though----dont know when it was invented and what propellent powders they were using at that time

[David E I Jones]

My experience is with small arms and I have used and seen cartridges made of brass, aluminium and steel. A cartridge has to be ductile to ease manufacture and to allow it to expand in the breech. A cartridge will not on its own withstand the pressuse during firing.

Copper jacketing a bullet was I believe to reduce the fouling found in the barrel after firing a lead bullet. A solid lead bullet will not deform during firing, well not in small arms anyway.

Dave

[museumtom]

The FMJ Full metal jacket used on ammunition is to allow the bullet to 'lock' into the rifling. This spins the bullet and makes a more stable trajectory. I often heard oldtimers saying that if you cut a cross in the top of the bullet it will become an expanding or dumdum bullet of the type banned by the Haig convention of 1899. If you cut a round in this way the fmj will get stuck in the rifling, the lead antimony core will burst out through the top of the bullet fouling the firearm and making it useless. try explaining that to your drill instructor. Fmj rounds usually use a cupro nickel envelope and have been used since black powder was superceeded by cordite and Nirtro Cellulose proplellants. These new propellants had the added advantage of being more powerful and SMOKELESS, which was the main reason for the change.

Tom Burnell

[Tom Morgan]

Shell cases were not the only thing, after any battle (conditions permitting) the battle field would be scoured by salvage squads for any useful items.

Quite so - and there were also widely-issued orders that whenever a battalion left the trenches, each man was to bring back one piece of salvage and deposit it on one of the many salvage-heaps in the rear areas.

Tom

[NIGEL]

David a lead bullet will deform if thats the right word when firing if in a high velocity rifle or other like a machine gun-------as far as i know lead bullets without the copper jacket are only used in sub sonic ammunition in some rifles and mainly pistols------the lead will foul the barrel but so will copper to a very much lesser extent witch is why the more the gun is used the less accurate it becomes that is why the rifleing has to be cleaned also to remove any corrosive properties from the powder and primer

the tend today especially with artillary is to use smoothbore guns where the projectile is encased in a nylon case which falls away and then fins on the projectile make it spin when it leaves the barrel------the much famous iraqi supergun used this method and i think one of the lastest american tank guns-----it is infact an old design much the same method used in shotgun catridges, infact you can get a single bullet for a shotgun ( very illegal ) which will spin when leaving the barrel this allows any material to be used for the projectile

[Max Poilu]

the much famous iraqi supergun used this method

As an interesting aside to this discussion was it not true that the 'Supergun' was in some small way based on the incredible Paris Gun used by the Germans to shell Paris from many, many miles away in the Great War?

There is a small section ('small' being the wrong word) of the Supergun at Duxford Air museum.

[NIGEL]

Could be giles, i have no knowlage of that but when ww1 broke out the modern bullet/shell was probably less than 50 years old------in india the single shot rifles there used a paper or cardboard cartridge where i think the bullet was held in place by wax or grease------obviously no good in wet conditions

it is actually the breach of the gun which contains the burn of the powder not the cartridge the cartridge is just away of delivering a measured amount of powder into the gun----too much and the shell will overshoot the target or explode the breach which will kill all around--------too little and the shell will land short or get stuck up the barrel, put another shell in and you could wipe half the artillery company out easily done in the heat of battle.

back on the supergun the man who gave the info to the iraqis had been around for a long time and his ideas were dismissed by the british and americans but he first gave this info to i think it was the south africans who changed the barrels of their artillary and used different powder and this far extended their range

i think the israely secret service killed him about 15 years ago for supplying the iraqis but the british and americans now use his technology but its certainly not new and could have been around from those days

[guy taylor]

Dear All,

I can confirm Giles Poilu regarding the 'reload' markings on artillery cartridge cases, though I don't know how many the maximum was. I have reloaded pistol rounds (when they could still be possessed by the law abiding!) up to a dozen times without exceeding dimension tolerances. This is fine for small volume target work but on a national economy scale it is easier to smelt the scrap and manufacture small arms ammunition from new metal. That also helps in terms of quality control with small cartridges.

For artillery cartridges, brass has just about an ideal blend of charactristics for the job. The Germans though, did use steel cartridge cases for large artillery pieces in the second world war, and possibly in the first. The Russians have long produced small arms ammunition in steel, sometimes with a brass wash, sometimes with a laquer coating. These cartridges cannot be reloaded as steel doesn't have the 'elasticity' of brass and is permanently deformed by firing, but it's cheaper in mass production and you don't have to worry about battlefield salvage.

As for modern artillery, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Nigel - I cannot think of any current artillery items that use smooth-bore - only tank main armaments, this is because they want a very high velocity and flat trajectory. Additionally tanks fire far fewer rounds in action than artillery guns.

Guy

PS Solid shot for a shotgun is not illegal- you just have to possess a firearm certificate for it. It is sometimes used by the military too.

[NIGEL]

guy----didnt the americans produce an artillary gun which was on tracks with this design would it be called a tank or self propelled gun----i dont know and also the method which this supergun creator gave some other country could be south africa i cant remember use the same process

also in a competition between the american tanks and the latest british tank a few years ago ---------the british tank was better if it had the american tanks gun and there was the idea to adopt that smoothbore gun

[David E I Jones]

Nigel

Back in the late 80’s I was reloading both pistol and rifle cartridges with cast bullets. I was reloading .303 rounds with a cast bullet and gas check and was getting around 1600 to 1700 fps (from memory), most defiantly supersonic. I was getting very good accuracy & minimal fouling. I had several friends with exotic large calibre rifles that had to cast as nothing was commercially available for their oddball and very powerful ‘elephant’ guns.

I have seen nylon clad projectiles or a sub-projectile and sabot. Remington called them accelerator rounds. The spin was provided by the rifleing. Again I stress this was for small arms I have no experience with artillery rounds.

I am not conversant with current gun laws but during my time of shooting a single bulleted shotgun round was not illegal; you needed a firearms certificate to own them. We use to call them home guard cartridges or Slugs.

Dave

[NIGEL]

DAVE---dont know mate its been 8 years since i was in england and then we were told you couldnt buy the slug cartridges but one way round it was to buy the slug bullets and then adapt your own shotgun cartridges by taking the shot out and replacing it with the slug.

on the other stuff i can only tell you what i saw and read------but saying that while i was out for the past hour trying to nail the fox who keeps taking my lambs with number 2 and buck shot i may add no slugs i was thinking that if sombody invented a gun which was made out of bits of machined tube and could deliver conventional chemical and thermonuclear unstopable shells 600 kms or miles whatever it was without rifled barrels you cant tell me no one else other than the people mentioned havent got something similar tucked away especially when the technology is so old

[Edward_N_Kelly]

Shell cases were not the only thing, after any battle (conditions permitting) the battle field would be scoured by salvage squads for any useful items.

Quite so - and there were also widely-issued orders that whenever a battalion left the trenches, each man was to bring back one piece of salvage and deposit it on one of the many salvage-heaps in the rear areas.

Tom

Also concur.

Salvage from the battlefield was likely the responsibility of the AOC (they had to assess it for immediate reuse, to be reconditioned at a workshop facility or return to "Blighty" for remanufacture) - though actual returns were by units to dumps arranged by AOC.

By the Second World War it was definitely the responsibility of RAOC - I have a pam issued (by the AAOC - reissue of a RAOC pam) covering salvage from the battlefield dated 1940. It includes recovery of vehicles and their repair (from 1942 the responsibility of the new EME Corps) and has a section on the recovery of human remains from destroyed /damaged vehicles.

Edward

[michaeldr]

Regarding ‘salvage’

An example from my current reading; The Hawke Battalion by Douglas Jerrold

“The battalion was very much below strength to begin with, the average being about twenty five NCOs and men in each platoon, and it had been further depleted by a heavy trench-mortar shell from one of our own batteries, which fell on one of ‘B’ company’s dug-outs late on the afternoon of the 12th [Nov 1916]. The damage was happily slight, but a large number of men were buried for several hours, ten or more were too seriously shaken to go forward. Incidentally, more than fifty men had to be hurriedly re-equipped, a contingency not foreseen, of course, by anyone, and thus causing an eleventh-hour renewal of hostilities between ourselves and the brigade staff. Ultimately the difficulty had been solved by the discovery of a salvage dump in Hamel, which provided stores good enough for a battle, though hardly up to the standard exacted on more serious occasions.”

Regards

Michael D.R.

[guy taylor]

I guess salvage, even down to rifle cartridge cases, was a lot simpler in trench conditions. For MG crews it would have been essential, just to keep your position habitable - a Vickers can produce one hell of a pile of brass in a very short time, and it's not all that comfortable to sit or kneel on. I imagine one of the ammunition numbers in the crew would have shovelled the cases into sandbags.

For artillery crews it would have been equally essential, but a lot easier, to collect the brass. Working on a big gun, using bag charges must have been a lot easier!

Guy

[Michael]

Great discussion. Thanks for all your input

Michael

[NIGEL]

In reply to part of this thread as to why Bullets in rifles and machine guns are copper coated ie,------------ Full Metal Jacket.

I said it was because of distortion to the bullet when traveling up the barrel and in flight due to it travelling at supersonic speed, where as pistol bullets which are mainly subsonic are usually lead and dont need to be Metal Jacketed.

Last week i contacted 2 Bullet manufacturers in the UK regarding this and these are their replies:-------

I think this was Eley in the West Midlands

1.

Hi Nigel , Sorry all our projectiles are solid lead so I don't know for certain the answer to your question . However I suspect you are correct in your deductions in terms of protection whilst travelling in the barrel - it also probably limits distortion of the projectile in flight . Hope this helps - Kind Regards AW

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2.

Mr. Green,

The reason for the copper jacket is:

- soft enough to engrave into the rifling,

- strong enough to hold together under the pressure, centrifugal and acceleration forces, and

- not prone to leaving metallic fouling in the barrel.

Sometimes pure copper is used, sometimes copper alloy, sometimes copper coated steel and other times copper and zinc alloy coated steel (called Tombac).

Regards,

John Carmichael

HPS Target Rifles Ltd

PO Box 308

Gloucester South

Gloucester, UK

GL2 2YF

Tel: +44 (0) 1452 729888

Fax: +44 (0) 1452 729894

e-mail: info@hps-tr.com

www.hps-tr.com

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I think that answers the query--------- Mr David E I Jones----------Just tidying up thats all

[303man]

Regarding Salvage here is a picture from Sept 1916 Auveley Wood on the Somme tells a story salvaged rifles from the battlefield.

[Michael]

Thanks for the additional comment on this thread guys

Mick

[N.S.Regt.]

Just to note the Germans developed a drawn cartridge made of steel durring ww1. The Germans were having a acute shortage of brass which led to experments in using different metals for rifle cartrides. The steel case was coated in copper and shoule be marked with a "E' Or a "SE" in the headstamp. One I have in my little collection of cartriges is marked D/1/18/SE/. The D stands for Koingliches Arsenal, Dresden, 1 stands for Jan., 18 is 1918, and SE is the iron case (eisenhulsen). They started to use this type of cartridge in 1915 for the 7.92 MM Mauser Rifle either the G88 or the 98 models.

Best Regards

N.S.Regt.

[MartinWills]

It is not entirely true that naval shell cases were discarded over the side. At Gallipoli where many naval vessels provided an artillery function and fired many more rounds than would be normal for naval vessels the supply vessels restocking the ships also collected the "empties".

I wonder to what extent the risk of explosions in munition factories were reduced through the use of brass cases rather than iron/steel which reduced the risk of accidental sparks?