Season Greetings from the CWGC & Service Authorities?

[Neil Clark]

I just recieved a yearly Christmas Card from the Western Front Association and a few other thoughtful organisations that have in the past used or benefited from my work.

How many hard working private volunteers out there diligently searching for non-coms and submitting cases on the fallen's behalf? Probably only a handful of people doing this on an on-going basis. Despite this no one in government service has EVER sent any of us a christmas card or other greeting thanking us for our hard work. I'm only talking of a card costing less than a bloody pound...

This year I worked out that I have spent over £1,000 on the investigation of non-coms including travel costs and the procurement of books and database access etc...

The service authorities together with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission should be utterly ashamed of themselves. They simply must be aware of the good work being done by a small band of dedicated band of volunteers...

Today I sent my own christmas cards to all the guilty parties -

Captain M.E.J O’Neill

The Registrar

Ministry of Defence

Directorate of Manning (Army)

Trenchard Lines

UPAVON

Pewsey

Wiltshire SN9 6BE

Captain Christopher Page

Director

Naval Historical Branch

H.M Naval Base

Portsmouth

Hampshire

Flight Lieutenant R.T Bryers

Royal Air Force

Ministry of Defence

PMA(CS)2a(2)RAF

Royal Air Force Innsworth

Gloucestershire

GL3 1EZ

Mr Peter Holton

Records Supervisor

Commonwealth War Graves Commission

2 Marlow Road

MAIDENHEAD

Buckinghamshire

(I have told Peter Holton in the past many times how nice it would be to recieve a christmas card each year from the Commission).

Those addresses were obtained by me making a demand under the Freedom of information Act. It took me almost 14 months to get the information from the MoD who treated it as some kind of Official Secret.

Of course I don't do the work for personal glory however it would be nice to be thanked by those authorities that are clearly taking advantage of my continued goodwill and caring spirit. I'm only talking about a flippin piece of paper here damn it!

What about a yearly meeting of minds where we could all get together to discuss matters and meet the people we deal with in these faceless quasi government organisations and agencies. I have mentioned this many times in the past on the forum and have even raised the idea with Peter Holton and a few other staff members in the CWGC. Nothing has ever been done in this respect. They merely continue to use us as it suits them...

Am I the only one to feel annoyed at this appallingly thoughtless treatment?

Oh yes, before I forget - My sincere thanks and seasons greetings to ALL of you out there who have ever helped get a fallen man a commemorated.

[welshdoc]

There is still 2 weeks to christmas, I have not even written my cards yet. Just prehaps they have put your name forward to the New Years Honours list.

[Ken Lees]

I've got more important things to be stressed over than who might or might not send me a Christmas card.

[Neil Clark]

I've got more important things to be stressed over than who might or might not send me a Christmas card.

Ken,

With respect You miss the point I'm trying to make here, perhaps it's my fault for not being very clear - it's nothing whatsover to do with a card really, it's merely the kind and sincere act of saying THANK YOU.

I'm glad you don't get stressed over who misses you off their christmas card list. Normally I would agree with you. In fact if I'm honest I don't really see the point in sending cards to obscure family members and strangers the way most of us often do. This is different though.

I'm not just talking about myself here either - I think that everyone who has ever devoted their time to finding these non-coms deserves a proper thanks from those who benefit. The In From The Cold Project volunteers have been searching huge lists and cross-referencing names with CWGC casualties. Each name needs to be carefully checked. It's mind numbingly boring and mundane work but it's vitally important work too - something that should have been done years ago by professionals NOT caring honourable privately funded volunteers. We are ALL being taken advantage of by these large organisations. The fact we do this work voluntarily for the casualties changes precisely nothing.

I'm intending to go through the Buffs and West Kent histories to cross-reference those names against the CWGC but at the moment I just can't face it. I greatly admire those out there who are doing this kind of thing everyday.

I know how much time goes into this kind of work - literally thousands of hours. Since 1999 I have devoted much of my spare-time to this work and I know others have done the same. Chris Harley and people like him deserve recognition from those organisations out there who have a professional involvement in the subject matter.

I'm in the habit of thanking those who help me regularly. I expect no less of others around me. And I have personally been calling for a yearly friendly informal meeting of minds for years now to iron out problems and make improvements.

It's just plain bloody rude

[Ken Lees]

Neil,

I take your point and I don't mean to belittle the work that you and others do in this regard. But, I think that the gratitude (whether expressed or not) comes from those who will use the information in the future, not the custodians of the data.

You are dealing with large organisations staffed by paid employees. Although many of them will carry out their duties professionally and care about the work they do, there is probably no one person whose job it is to look after the additional data provided, nor those who provide it.

Also, I don't doubt that there are those within any organisation who feel that 'meddling amateurs' simply add to their workload.

Be comforted by the knowledge that you, and others like you, are providing a tremendously valuable service to those of us who are interested and to countless generations to come.

Regards,

Ken

[who wishes he had written that the first time!]

[chrisharley9]

Xmas Cards - bah humbug - I'll settle for a few bottles of real ale

The Times Archives god bless em just keep giving more & more potential non comms - some pretty high rankers among them too - have got quite a few more from local war memorials as well

Instead of sending me a Xmas card send me an invite to your local pub

Chris

[Michael]

I'm intending to go through the Buffs and West Kent histories to cross-reference those names against the CWGC but at the moment I just can't face it.

I shouldn't bother Neil - I've been there. I gave them a list of over 100 mistakes and was treated to a letter saying none of them were mistakes. I know for a fact one of them was because I got a friend to resubmit it under his name. Lo and behold they accepted it and changed the grave stone.

I refuse to use the backdoor route to the CWGC that certain people seem to have. I will not be spending money photocopying records, etc just because they can't be bothered to look through the list I gave them.

[Greyhound]

The service authorities together with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

This is a sentiment you often seem to express, so is it really that surprising if you're not on their Christmas card list.

[delta]

As some-one who works near to one of the "faceless quasi-government organsiations", (a statement I find offensive in the extreme.) I will wander round next week to see if your card has arrived safely. I do not recognise the name of the young captain mentioned so he may well have been posted - alternatively he is currently on a tour in either somewhere hilly or sandy.

Stephen

[fotonix]

It's quite right that so-called 'officials' should recognise those of us who give freely of our time and money to do this kind of thing. However, it is rather typical of government and quasi-governmental organisations to have this unthankful attitude. Indeed, some of them see 'volunteers' as some kind of threat to their existence. Given that most of them sit on their backsides and do very little from one end of the year to the next, their fear may be justified!

There's also the question of why should an official help or recognise someone else when it isn't getting him/her anywhere up the ranks or honours list?

J.

[Chris_Baker]

I just recieved a yearly Christmas Card from the Western Front Association

Well, here's one former Chairman of the WFA who has never received one. You must be in their good books!

[Guest KevinEndon]

When I started (still do) doing the search for non commemorated soldiers never once did it cross my mind that I should get praise, a christmas card or any reward for finding the soldiers. Just to seeing that they have finally got recognition is plenty enough for me. There must be thousands out there who are looking for non comms, and I would prefer that the price of the card and the stamp went on a few thousand bedding plants for their cememteries rather than send me a card that only goes on display for around 3 weeks.

Surely seeing the service persons name on the CWGC roll is plenty enough. How many of us support charities thoughout the year, do we get christmas cards from them. Can you imagine the uproar when the annual financial report for the CWGC comes through and there is £2,000 for Christmas card printing and posting, that money would be stopped or they would be forced to put it to better use.

Kevin

[chrisharley9]

Here Here Kev

Our reward will be in heaven - thats if you believe of course

Chris

[Stephen Nulty]

Be comforted by the knowledge that you, and others like you, are providing a tremendously valuable service to those of us who are interested and to countless generations to come.

Neil

Although I understand and appreciate your comments, gripes and groans, I think Ken put it best in his earlier post (above). I don't want to be critical of the people to whom you refer; it's the system that's at fault, not the individuals.

[delta]

"It's quite right that so-called 'officials' should recognise those of us who give freely of our time and money to do this kind of thing. However, it is rather typical of government and quasi-governmental organisations to have this unthankful attitude. Indeed, some of them see 'volunteers' as some kind of threat to their existence. Given that most of them sit on their backsides and do very little from one end of the year to the next, their fear may be justified! There's also the question of why should an official help or recognise someone else when it isn't getting him/her anywhere up the ranks or honours list?"

I'm not sure in which world you are living but it isn't the one I recognise. The "officials" are serving officers - most are working at 10 hour day from one year end to the other - they are also regularly on operational tours and to be honest, few gongs are earned in the support area.

[fotonix]

"It's quite right that so-called 'officials' should recognise those of us who give freely of our time and money to do this kind of thing. However, it is rather typical of government and quasi-governmental organisations to have this unthankful attitude. Indeed, some of them see 'volunteers' as some kind of threat to their existence. Given that most of them sit on their backsides and do very little from one end of the year to the next, their fear may be justified! There's also the question of why should an official help or recognise someone else when it isn't getting him/her anywhere up the ranks or honours list?"

I'm not sure in which world you are living but it isn't the one I recognise. The "officials" are serving officers - most are working at 10 hour day from one year end to the other - they are also regularly on operational tours and to be honest, few gongs are earned in the support area.

Well, I speak of my own experience, and so it's my opinion. As such, you can hardly call it wrong. You are, quite evidently, free to express your own opinion, and I'm sure that you are right that there are many exceptions to the rule. If I (or anyone else on here, I should imagine) had an all-out view that all military men were of no use, then I don't think we'd have an interest in the Great War.

I think my point is a more general one, perhaps poorly expressed earlier, that what is 'official' is often taken to mean 'good'. Conversely, what is not 'official' is often taken to be 'not good'. You can substitute 'good' with 'authoritative', 'worthwhile', 'worthy', or whatever takes your fancy. My points also were meant to relate more to 'quasi-official' bodies, who, in my opinion, often leave a lot to be desired.

What is clear is that the OPs view still remains valid: nobody really recognises the effort.

But it's not the forum, nor the time of year, to get into a bun fight. Let's move on with the good work.

J.

[Neil Clark]

Delta,

I find it most odd that anyone would be offended by describing official governement sponsored bodies as " faceless Quasi-Official organisations? Thats what they are aren't they? They are neither wholely official or private they are in between

I have NEVER done this work for personal glory but after nearly 9 years I feel it wouldn't hurt to send a small inexpensive note of thanks. As regards the £2,000 bill for sending Christmas cards, I would imagine that there are less than 20 individuls in the world doing this work on an on-going basis so the true figure is more likely to be £20.

I am in the habit of thanking those who help me and I see no reason why others shouldn't do the same. It's plain ignorant and a personal slur...

Try not to be too sanctimonious with your comments regarding serving soldiers. I feel sure that nearly all forum pals will already support our brave servicemen 100%. In fact my son of 23 (a T.A Soldier 3PWRR) is currently on tour in Afghanistan with a regular infantry unit. I am also active in raising money for Help For Heroes and a member of the UKNDA. I served in the MoD Police for quite a few years too where I came in contact with "faceless" civil servants everyday. The individuals I have listed above are representing official bodies in the public domain and there is NOTHING wrong with giving their details here. It would be different if I gave their home addresses. Apparently it's called "Open Government"!

The purpose of the thread was to draw peoples attention to the fact that these "faceless quasi-official bodies" (sorry Delta) are taking advantage of kind and thoughtful volunteers without even saying thanks. I find that personally insulting. In 9 years I have had cause to complain about some of these "faceless" organisations I feel I am entitled to say so here.

There are many ways in which we could all contribute if someone in authority asked us to meet up once yearly to discuss these non-coms. Some of you will remember the document that I leaked a few years ago regarding CWGC guideleines given to MoD service authorities (2 pieces of A4 paper containing utter drivel). This is just one area we could help with.

I guess that Fotonix and I hold similar views about faceless organisations!

[delta]

I'm not sure how these "...." take advanatge of volunteers as you state

I'm getting the wrong end of the stick but what are you expecting these Service staff branches to do?

[centurion]

What a winge 'cause you didn't get a Christmas card - someone give him his rattle back and lets get on.

[martinb]

Don't really agree with the point you are making Neil.

You do what you do because you want to and enjoy it.

No one insists that you do it or spends you money doing it. It is your choice.

You should get your thanks from the knowledge that you have helped someone.agree

If CWGC and Service staff sent out a Christmas Card to regular uses there would soon be a shout about them wasting public money

[Jim Clay]

I don't see why you think you're due a number of Xmas cards from these organisations, Neil. Are you on friendly terms with the people you're lambasting on this and other threads?

As you've said yourself, you do what you do - and it's excellent work, too - for the fallen; not for the Mod or CWGC. As others have said, you get your thanks and satisfaction from seeing another non-com brought in from the cold. Why is it so important that someone in MoD or CWGC, someone you see as a faceless, obstructive, jobsworth bureaucrat, should send you Xmas greetings?

Jim

[Neil Clark]

I'm not merely "whinging" and I am annoyed by that "throw away" comment from someone that knows nothing about me or my work over the past 9 years. I'm just registering the fact that the work WE do isn't acknowledged by those who are benefiting from it. As far as I'm concerned closer co-operation would result in a fairer and better adjudication system. I'm not just talking about myself, all the people who have gone out of their way to find non-coms deserves their work to be properly acknowledged and to be thanked.

Please lets not let the thread here degenerate into a bullying one (there are already enough of those out there where pals simply enter an argument on the offchance just to give the minority opinion a good kicking). What I said here was well meaning...

I was bought up to say thank you and to acknowledge those who help me... It would appear I'm in the minority in this respect.

[chrisharley9]

No you are not in the minority Neil - after the recent publicity locally Re Harry Thimbleby in March Cemetery I was surprised by the number of people who have approached me in the street just to say thank you for the job I have done locally for the non commemorated - any Neil thanks very much for all the help & advice you have given me over the last couple of years

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Thats very kind of you my good friend. The feeling is entirely mutual. It wasn't your thanks I was looking for though - I merely want OUR collective efforts to be properly acknowledged by the CWGC and the Service Authorities themselves. It would appear that many have a problem understanding this. I'm NOT looking for a pat on the back myself and I'm certainly NOT a whinger as Centurion seems to think. Those who know me will realise my intent here is entirely honourable.

There are always going to be a few ignorant people out there who choose open their mouths before understanding the subject they are commenting upon.

I have been raising the possibility of a yearly meeting for some years now. Those of you with a genuine interest in non-coms will know that over the years my moans have been pretty consistant. It would appear that the authorities and agencies involved here still treat us all as threats to their little empires which is disapointing to say the least...

Another £24 in DC's this week! That makes £84 this month alone.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Another £24 in DC's this week! That makes £84 this month alone.

You are getting too much of a pension Neil lol, why don't you go through the IFTC project, you still get the recognition but you will have a heavier wallet to carry. Over a grand a year is a heafty lump of cash to splash out, maybe instead of shouting about not getting a Christmas Card you could get a petition going that anyone looking for a Death Cert for a possilbe non comm should get them for free.

Kev