List of unsuccessful or failed battalions

[John Gilinsky]

Hello everyone. I am researching a book on an unsuccessful CEF battalion.

Can people please submit the full title with brief dates (authorization in orders for example and official disbandment dates)of battalions that were NOT successful or were dissolved or disbanded while still in their country of origin?

I am NOT interested in battalions that went overseas or went to France or other theaters of operations and were THEN disbanded or dissolved. I am ONLY interested in battalions that were dissolved while still in their own country. Any reasons official or otherwise with any documentation if such exists would also be appreciated. We might start subsections such as Great Britain, Canada, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, India, Far East/Oceania, Other parts of British Empire, U.S.A., etc.....

Thanks!

John

Toronto

I believe Peter Simkins book on Kitchener's army does go into this but I wish is a full a list(s) of all unsuccessful battalions.

[charlesmessenger]

John

A quick skim through Brig E A James British Regiments 1914-1918, reveals only one bn disbanded per se in UK. This was the 25th Royal Fusiliers (Legion of Frontiersmen), which served in East Africa from May 1915 until the end of 1917 and was disbanded in |Putney, London on 29/6/18. This was not because it was a failure, it fought with distinction. I suspect that the reason for its disbandment was lack of manpower. Like every other unit in E Africa its sickness rate would have been very high.

Charles M

[Graham Stewart]

Quite a task their as there were indeed many instances of proposed units which didn't get off the ground in the UK. The raisers of the 'Tyneside Commercials', the Newcastle & Gateshead Chamber of Commerce proposed to raise a Brigade that would have had the 16th,18th,19th & 20th Battalions of Tyneside Commercials, Northumberland Fusiliers and the Tyneside Scottish would have began at 21st Bn, but the final unit was never raised. The 17th Bn was North Eastern Railways. The Tynside Irish began raising long before sanction was given and the original battalion began to fade away before official recognition.

In ACI's there is mention that the 'Liverpool Irish' will 'not now be raised'. This was a 'Service' battalion and not to be confused with the Liverpool Irish Battalion of the Territorial Force. Sadly I'm now back in Saudi, so can't dig out my notes on these things. I even have a copy of an advert for a 'Public Schools Battalion of the RND' somewhere at home. While there was also a proposal to raise a battalion from the North Yorks Volunteer Training Corps for either 'Garrison' or 'Pioneer' work.

One of the best sources for the proposed raising and non-sanctioning of such units would be in the local newspapers and I believe that the file for proposed raising's is still buried deep in the NA somewhere, but I never got around to looking for it.

[MartinWills]

I think that the thread title is perhaps a little disconcerting. I, personally, would not describe these battalions as "unsuccessful" or "failed". In many cases this may even be seen as reflecting ill on the men of those units. I think in practice they are "dissolved" battalions, their members having gone overseas in many cases to act as drafts / reinforcements for other battalions in the field. Just my thoughts.

On a different note, did you intend to include the more obscure garrison battalions, 2nd & 3rd line battalions etc. I think this could generate quite a long list!!!

Good luck!

[John Gilinsky]

Quite a task their as there were indeed many instances of proposed units which didn't get off the ground in the UK. The raisers of the 'Tyneside Commercials', the Newcastle & Gateshead Chamber of Commerce proposed to raise a Brigade that would have had the 16th,18th,19th & 20th Battalions of Tyneside Commercials, Northumberland Fusiliers and the Tyneside Scottish would have began at 21st Bn, but the final unit was never raised. The 17th Bn was North Eastern Railways. The Tynside Irish began raising long before sanction was given and the original battalion began to fade away before official recognition.

In ACI's there is mention that the 'Liverpool Irish' will 'not now be raised'. This was a 'Service' battalion and not to be confused with the Liverpool Irish Battalion of the Territorial Force. Sadly I'm now back in Saudi, so can't dig out my notes on these things. I even have a copy of an advert for a 'Public Schools Battalion of the RND' somewhere at home. While there was also a proposal to raise a battalion from the North Yorks Volunteer Training Corps for either 'Garrison' or 'Pioneer' work.

One of the best sources for the proposed raising and non-sanctioning of such units would be in the local newspapers and I believe that the file for proposed raising's is still buried deep in the NA somewhere, but I never got around to looking for it.

An excellent resonse and just the type of battalions I am looking for for comparative purposes. That is not disbanded having fought battalions (depleted etc....) but battalions that were authorized but failed to successfully mobilze/recruit.

If you can at all find any NA references to these types of battalions please let us know the archival reference(s)!

Tx again,

John

I think that the thread title is perhaps a little disconcerting. I, personally, would not describe these battalions as "unsuccessful" or "failed". In many cases this may even be seen as reflecting ill on the men of those units. I think in practice they are "dissolved" battalions, their members having gone overseas in many cases to act as drafts / reinforcements for other battalions in the field. Just my thoughts.

On a different note, did you intend to include the more obscure garrison battalions, 2nd & 3rd line battalions etc. I think this could generate quite a long list!!!

Good luck!

There are diverse and/or many reasons why such battalions were not successful. In most cases several of their dispersed personnel saw action later and served well. It is not my intention whatsoever to investigate latter field service competencies of such battalion's members. Rather I am interested in the reasons for failure(s) and the social historical local aspects (in my case a Canadian example).

Thanks for your post.

John

Toronto

[John Gilinsky]

Quite a task their as there were indeed many instances of proposed units which didn't get off the ground in the UK. The raisers of the 'Tyneside Commercials', the Newcastle & Gateshead Chamber of Commerce proposed to raise a Brigade that would have had the 16th,18th,19th & 20th Battalions of Tyneside Commercials, Northumberland Fusiliers and the Tyneside Scottish would have began at 21st Bn, but the final unit was never raised. The 17th Bn was North Eastern Railways. The Tynside Irish began raising long before sanction was given and the original battalion began to fade away before official recognition.

In ACI's there is mention that the 'Liverpool Irish' will 'not now be raised'. This was a 'Service' battalion and not to be confused with the Liverpool Irish Battalion of the Territorial Force. Sadly I'm now back in Saudi, so can't dig out my notes on these things. I even have a copy of an advert for a 'Public Schools Battalion of the RND' somewhere at home. While there was also a proposal to raise a battalion from the North Yorks Volunteer Training Corps for either 'Garrison' or 'Pioneer' work.

One of the best sources for the proposed raising and non-sanctioning of such units would be in the local newspapers and I believe that the file for proposed raising's is still buried deep in the NA somewhere, but I never got around to looking for it.

Graham: Thanks for your post. Any way to find those NA files to dissolved, disbanded home units?

There are many reasons for disbandment:

1) insufficient recruiting results

2) poor or underfunded(?) recruiting input by battalion

3) poor leadership for a variety of reasons: inexperienced or lack of officers

4) too diverse and too competitive recruiting area(s) eg. large urban centers with multiple units recruiting at same time

etc.....

John

[Graham Stewart]

Recruiting at the outbreak of the war was chaotic and many were jumping on the bandwagon to form local battalions and the War Office just couldn't cope. Eventually a set of rules for the formation of "locally raised battalions" was put together by the War Office, which had to be complied with by raisers to gain official sanction. Each raiser submitted a letter which then went onto file within the War Office and it would appear each proposed unit was given it's own file and file number, these numbers are published within ACI's along with a list of units receiving or not receving sanction. However it's still unclear how many units were proposed as many didn't fill the criteria of the rules put forward by the War Office and so fell at the first hurdle.

Being away from home I can't remember the general name of the file and obviously don't have access to my notes to let you know the title of the file which covered all units wanting sanction. It's one of those War Office files which seems to have been lost in among all of the other general files which were never ever sorted and it would have meant searching for it and I never ever got around to it. The reason for my interest in these files was to try and find the letters asking for the proposed raising and sanction of the Tyneside Scottish, sadly time wasn't on my side for this task.

Regarding local newspapers - they're a brilliant source for that sort of thing, but it would possibly takes weeks to do, even if you went through all of those local newpapers kept in the Collingwood Newspaper Library. Hopefully GWF members who have followed the raising of battalions through their local newspapers may be able to offer assistance but sadly I'm not in position to assist.

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks anyways Graham for sharing your information. Perhaps someone somewhere will locate this W.O. file. Meanwhile across the seas ....

John

[John Gilinsky]

Looked briefly at the 1988 book by Peter Simkins "Kitchener's Armies: The Raising of the New Armies" especially Chapter 4 "Recruiting in Decline. October 1914 - May 1915" This is a good book that is well written, documented and organized. However I don't think I found in my cursory examination the year 1916 and battalions being unsuccessful. The general drift I get from Simkins is that the rush to colours and the fall off were not simple phenomenon but rather frequently if not typically subtly differentiated between individuals and localities dependent of many factors such as how much and how reliable separation allowance was being distributed, how well local economic engines were doing as a direct result of the war, etc....

Does anyone have references/documentation to the year 1916 (the whole year pre-Somme, during Somme and post-Somme(end of year)) and difficulties in recruiting and maintaining/organizing local infantry battalions?

Thanks again all,

John

[stevenbecker]

John,

I am unsure if falls into your brackets but we have the 14th Light Horse Regt AIF.

Raised in 1916 to be the Div Cav for the 3rd (Austrailan) Div AIF under Monash and sent to the UK as ASqn/14th LHR and a small RHQ.

During training in the UK there became no need for this Regt in early 1917 and it was disbanded into the 3rd Div before it was sent to France.

The Regt was reraised in 1918 in Palestine from the Camel Corps.

Cheers

S.B

[Graham Stewart]

John,

Going back to that last post, I distinctly remember an article in the Illustrated Chronicle dated around April 1915, which discussed the demise of recruiting for the Territorials in Northumberland. Although I cannot remember it word for word what did stick in my mind was a quote by one recruiter or member of the local TFA which went something like "if we carry on recruiting at this rate, it'll be 1935(?) before we reach full war-time establishment".

It was sometime in 1915 that I believe the War Office decreed that no new locally raised battalions would be sanctioned and that only recruiting for the regular army and Territorials would take place. This was also the beginning of the National Sevice Act and the start of the Derby Scheme, which was the last call for "Volunteers" before conscription came into being under the Military Services Act in 1916.

[Guest]

Not sure of all the facts but i believe the 11th and 12th Black Watch weren't too 'successful'.

I think that men from the 11th went on to fill ranks of other Bns,and the 12th ceased to exist in May 1917.

Mike

[John Gilinsky]

Mike,Graham and Steve: Thanks very much for your contributions and the references which I am sure will help others as well as me. Here in Canada conscription though talked about seriously during 1916 was NOT practically introduced until after the harvest of 1917 (i.e. October 1917). Thus during 1916 the year that conscription was introduced in Great Britain Canadians were still expected to volunteer.

Does anyone have any statistics, anecodatal memoir references, newspaper editorials or letters to the editor for Great Britain during 1915 - 1916 trying to explain and/or defend the drop of in recruiting?

Thanks again gentlemen,

John

Toronto

[Bob Doneley]

In early 1917 the Australian Imperial Force (AIF) started to raise a sixth division, based in England. After the battles of Bullecourt in April & May 1917 - and the defeat of the conscription referenda - the decreasing availability of reinforcements made the division impracticable and it was dissolved without seeing any active service; its members were distributed to the original five Australian divisions as reinforcements.

Bob

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

Just to add to Bob's reply.

I believe only one Brigade (16th Bde) was raised for the 6th Australian Div AIF and its Bn's, the 61st, 62nd, 63rd and 64th are known to be formed in training camps in the UK.

There were also AASC Companies raised for it (30th and 31st AASC Companies 6 Div train), but how far the other elements of the Div were advanced is unknown to me, before it was disbanded.

Cheers

S.B

[JulianB]

In the absence of 'War Daries' it is difficult to track these 'home battalions'. In my case I'm trying to find information on the 16th Bn KLR - which was specifically set up as a training battalion in late 1914 and was disbanded in late 1916 when that role was taken over nationally by the Tr Bns - there must be almost hundreds of similar cases. They nevertheless 'fed' thousands of men for overseas service - my g'fthr and gt uncle were both commissioned into 16 / KLR.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Possible candidate from the Long, Long Trail

The Ardeer Company

August 1914 : in Ardeer. This Company had been formed in 1913 as a local guard by the Nobel's Explosive Works. It appears to have been disbanded in November 1914, having handed over guard duties to the Scottish Rifles, although it continued to appear in the Army List.

Kevin

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks Bob, Steven, Julian and Kevin for your details. I am very interested in those battalions or companies that while formally recognized and authorized and partially complete were then disbanded or dissolved.

John

[Stebie9173]

In many "County Regiments", as opposed to the diverse mix of battalion raised in the urban conurbations, there was a general decision to put a halt to the raising of battalions purely to be "Service" i.e. overseas battalions, and most of these Regiments eventually reached a point in late 1914 when the youngest battalion(s) were designated as Second Reserve battalions, and took to training men for the other Service battalions (by and large) rather than with a view to embarking to France as a whole. This was based more on the number of Divisions that the Army could sustain from a materiel perspective rather than a recruiting one. The majority of these then converted to Training Reserve as of 1-9-1916. I would certainly be reluctant to describe these battalions as "unsuccesfully raised", as there is no suggestion that they did not, as a whole, reach full establishment.

Steve.

[Bob Doneley]

Mate,

Just to add to Bob's reply.

I believe only one Brigade (16th Bde) was raised for the 6th Australian Div AIF and its Bn's, the 61st, 62nd, 63rd and 64th are known to be formed in training camps in the UK.

There were also AASC Companies raised for it (30th and 31st AASC Companies 6 Div train), but how far the other elements of the Div were advanced is unknown to me, before it was disbanded.

Cheers

S.B

Thanks Steve. I have come across mention of the 61-64 Bn's, but never any others. Your comment clarifies why. I did find 6th Division War Diaries on the AWM site, but they are predominantly the diaries of the the 16th Field Company, Australian Engineers.

Bob