CWGC Shut off date

[Guest KevinEndon]

Can someone tell us the last date of death the CWGC use for WW1 soldiers, sometime in 1921 I believe,

TIA

Kevin

[CROONAERT]

31st August 1921 (and 31st December 1947 for WW2)

[Guest]

Would that be the same for local memorials?,ie was anyone dying after these dates excluded from ww1/2 memorials?

Cheers Mike

[CROONAERT]

No... Local memorials have no hard and fast rules as they are nothing to do with the CWGC in the main. Inclusion on the memorial all depends on the individual criteria of that particular church/organisation/town council/club or whatever that raised it.

Dave.

[Neil Clark]

Mike, this is a very common misconception don't worry! this may help understand the differences -

Official Commemoration .v. Civic Commemoration

It is absolutely imperative that you understand the difference between an Official Tribute and a Civic Tribute. This is not always understood and can lead to utter confusion. Each casualty of the war should have an official commemoration (paid for and maintained by the government) – this can be in the form of a headstone where they were buried or in the case of men whose remains were never found or identified, an entry on one of the government’s memorials to the missing men. A civic commemoration is a private tribute often funded by parish council’s and local authorities where a man hailed from or was employed. The men’s names that appear on private (civic) tributes will more often than not also appear on an official tribute somewhere else. Sometimes we come across men’s names on local civic tributes who do not have any form of official commemoration. It is these men who will take priority because this means the country they died for has forgotten their sacrifice! Try not to get the two confused.

The vast majority of men whose names appear on a civic tribute should ALSO have an official tribute. If not then it’s possible their name has been forgotten! If you are transcribing a civic war memorial and come across a name(s) that you can’t trace on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission searchable website it’s possible (even probable) that you have discovered one of these men! Unfortunately the authorities will not assist you. It’s up to you alone to get the record put straight. If you decide you want to do this, we shall be happy to assist you in any way we possibly can. Just get in touch with us.

This is a good example of confusion between a civic and official commemoration - Some people in Medway seem to under the mis-guided impression that the Chatham Naval Memorial is in fact the town’s civic tribute to the fallen men of Medway and surrounding areas! Of course this is nonsense, the Chatham Naval Memorial is in fact an official military memorial to the fallen sailors from ships that were based at Chatham during the war. The vast majority of sailors mentioned on it came from all over the UK and it’s Dominions.

[Guest KevinEndon]

Cheers Dave and Neil much appreciated

Kevin

[Neil Clark]

Kevin,

I had a case rejected cos he missed the cut off date by 2 days

Poor sod died of Respiritory Disese, he was severely gassed on Hill 60 in 1916. His service records and pension records recorded a truly shockingly sad story - he suffered terribly for 5 years and finally drowned in his own body juices.

At the time in 2001 I was really upset that these jobsworths couldn't just change the date by 2 days.

[Guest]

Thanks guys,that has all been very helpful.

Cheers Mike

[Guest KevinEndon]

If the CWGC moved the date to say the 31st December 1921 and you/I/we came up with somebody who died on the 1st January 1922 then we would be asking the same question. Maybe no closure date would be better if it is beyond doubt that they died because of their war service. This I doubt would ever be done so a closure date had to be set.

Kevin

[CROONAERT]

Maybe no closure date would be better if it is beyond doubt that they died because of their war service. This I doubt would ever be done so a closure date had to be set.

Well, the Canadians managed to do just that with the issue of Memorial Crosses (WW1 cases were still being issued into the 1950s at least), so it would be feasable I suppose.

Then again...does it really matter all that much whether or not a certain person is included on a public database or not? They'll probably be remembered by someone somewhere anyway and that's all that matters surely? (I suppose the old saying "as anonymous as a soldier's grave" doesn't ring true any more does it?)

dave.

[Neil Clark]

120,000 War Pensioners died between 1919 and 1929!

Now thats a shocking FACT.

[John Morcombe]

Plenty of Bronze Memorial plaques were issued to British Naval personnel who died from causes attributable & not-attributable to war service, but not qualifying for CWGC status. I have one issued to a man who died of TB in May 1926, contracted whilst POW 14-18. Also plaques were issued for Syphilitic deaths in the RN Lunatic Hospital.

[Neil Clark]

John,

Nice to see your keeping an eye on the non-com sub forum.

Interesting to hear that about Syphilitic deaths being awarded death penny's. These service patients in mental asylums died from a disease called General Paralysis of the Insane (GPI). In my opinion they were just as much casualties of the Great War as KIA men.

Note this development in 1917 -

Minstry of Pensions and the War Office Guidelines 1917 - Mental Health of Serviceman

In 1917, it was decided to eliminate the distinction between cases with and without service-connected trauma, where it could be presumed that military service – even brief and served in Britain – had exacerbated (accelerated, deepened) pre-existing psychiatric conditions, including G.P.I.

The Ministry of Pensions in consultation with the service authorites decided that GPI men should be treated the SAME as all other war casualties. In practice this wasn't always done and many thousands of GPI servicemen died alone in obscure civilian asylums throughout the UK. Most were buried quietly in unmarked paupers graves!

I'd be interested if you could provide the details of any of your cases who were awarded a death penny but whose names are not recorded officially by the CWGC. I think I may be able to make a convincing case to have it corrected. You can email me (you have my address Jack).

Where was the RN Lunitic Hospital exactly? (Gosport, Portsmouth, Chatham)....

See this thread - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=111420

[chrisharley9]

Neil

the Naval Lunatic hospital was at Great Yarmouth

Chris

[Guest geoff501]

Then again...does it really matter all that much whether or not a certain person is included on a public database or not? They'll probably be remembered by someone somewhere anyway and that's all that matters surely? (I suppose the old saying "as anonymous as a soldier's grave" doesn't ring true any more does it?)

Thomas Prescott. Enlisted November 1914. Served in Egypt. Alleged to have been gassed. Discharged from army. Discharged from hospital. Died Armistice day, 1918, in the local workhouse, of TB and heart failure. Parents died, mother shares same grave. Only brother kia serving in Warwicks. Only sister married, (uncommon married name, no luck from the phone directory). Now just a name on a memorial in the church.

He's buried under the first tree. Not forgotten.

[Michael Johnson]

The dates chosen were the effective dates of the peace treaties for each war. As such they weren't open to change.

[John Morcombe]

David James BONES. Plaque issued. A 'Dangerous Lunatic' died of GPI at Yarmouth 1/1/18. Papers, plaque etc. illustrated at cwgc.co.uk. Terry Denham has his case, but probably crashed because of contrary opinion to GPI.

Also see several such cases already presented & rejected by RNHB on the Sponsors page. If what you say is correct then all these chaps should have been accepted. Tough nut to crack (excuse pun).

[auchonvillerssomme]

120,000 War Pensioners died between 1919 and 1929!

Now thats a shocking FACT.

Is that WW1 pensioners or does it include pre and post Boer War and other campaigns?

Mick

[Peter Gower]

The dates chosen were the effective dates of the peace treaties for each war. As such they weren't open to change.

If I can be picky, I believe that while the WW1 cut off date was the "official" end of the war because of treaties, the WW2 cut off date was chosen as being about the same length of time as the WW1 was, and does not commemorate anything in particular. But, as was well said, whatever date was chosen, somebody would miss it by a day.

[Terry Denham]

Peter is correct above. The WW1 date is the date the UK Parliament legally declared the war to be over and the WW2 date was chosen as Peter said.

These dates are set down in CWGC's Royal Charter.