Honoured At Last

[Kate Wills]

To assist with the main purpose of this thread i.e. the discussion of SAD, I intend to cut many of the posts which are interrupting the discourse.

Please do not be offended, but one of the frustrations of this 13 page thread is that points tabled by members such as John Hartley, Magic Rat et al concerning the subject in hand, are lost in the accumulation of interjections which do not carry the discussion forwards.

[Black Watch]

And that really is it for me in this one. Sooner it gets closed the better, I say.

No one is forcing you to read it, if you don't like it stay away, but why ask for it to be shut? Others are obviously interested judgng by the number of replies and views.

Why do people feel the need to announce they are no longer taking part in a thread, if thats the way you feel, don't take part in it.

Neil

[Dragon]

having them purporting to be seriously debating topics by claiming to be putting forward legitimate alternative points of view on the main boards brings the credibility of the forum into disrepute

And openly insulting people and ridiculing them doesn't?

I think you overestimate the importance of this forum. It's an Internet message board. It may be the largest and most popular English language one, and it has among its members some very reputable published historians and some very diligent researchers with reputations in their fields, but it isn't any more than an Internet forum. There's also a lot of light-weight historical discussion goes on too, and that's the nature of forums. A forum is a place where a small fish can feel very knowledgeable in his little pool and that, I suspect, is the basis of some people's membership of them.

What I see happening here is bullying. Many people see weaknesses in Barry's posts. Once the trend of personal insults, sneers and ridicule started, then others joined in, with the confidence of being part of the crowd giving them licence to say whatever they like to this particular contributor. The snide post linking to pictures of trolls is outrageous.

I don't like what I'm seeing and I want to disassociate myself from it. This isn't a forum where people are hounded into silence, whatever happens in others. And I would say that whether it's Barry or anyone else at the receiving end.

Gwyn

[Ann Sinnott]

I see. But it's OK for people like Barry to show utter contempt for the intelligence or knowledge of others here? And if you read over his threads - not just this one - he's not backward at casting aspersions at others himself - or, for that matter, at the British nation as a whole. In my view, if it acts like a clown, talks like a clown, then there's a fair chance it is a clown.

Hello George

I'm one of the people who objected to name-calling, insults, jeers and sneers (and was openly suspected of being a co-conspirator of Barry's!). I acted because I was appalled at the sheer barrage directed toward Barry. Because Barry then often retaliated in kind, I also criticised him. But Barry did not start that behaviour.

I also acted because I believe debate is constructive and brawling not - which is what it can descend to when respect for and courtesy toward the other is absent.

Several people, perhaps rightly, feel Barry failed to respond to their specific queries, some vented their frustration by resorting to abuse. I believe points can be effectively made without snide remarks.

Barry achieved his objective [stated somewhere around p10/11, I think]: to highlight the SAD issue. In my opinion that's no bad thing. But I rather think he also made sport of us all, viz his comment that it was 'no longer fun' and that he was off [don't ask me to go back through all those pages to find the post number!). Personally, and perhaps especially because I leapt to his defence, that made me feel rather manipulated.

Anyway Barry, I learnt a lot, so I have to thankyou for starting the post, but I won't be leaping into the fray in your defence again! Still, as you say, no hard feelings.

Ann

[Muerrisch]

Just popped back to see if you are all behaving yourself.

No abuse. No snide comments, just disdain.

My last words?

SAD campaigners need to deal with Pte Dennis.

[Waffenlandser]

Anne I think we have a cultural issue here.

By fun I mean interest and the heat of debate. There is no light heartedness for the majority of posts. I am deriving no joy or amusement from this subject. I am as serious as a heart attack here, as I was on the Somme issue. I am making jest of nobody here or the events of 1914-1918

Most of my quotes were from British sources, so how can I be insulting the British people. I have the greates respect for Britain. I lived there worked there and studied there. My father fought for England and my grandfather paid the supreme penalty for England.

You may remember the comments about "some Yank" a while ago.

Calling me anti British is like calling a person who criticises Israel an anti semite.

[Ann Sinnott]

Hi Barry

Logging back in to say: all is forgiven! - appreciate language gets used differently either side of the pond.

I personally have no doubt about your sincerity and passion for these particular issues.

Your comments re racism are more properly directed at the posters who levelled those kind of accusations. Yes, I do recall the comments - but not made by me.

Ann

[Waffenlandser]

Your comments re racism are more properly directed at the posters who levelled those kind of accusations

They are Anne. They are. Certainly not at you.

Now lets all let this thread die a natural death.

[dutchbarge]

I had intended not to rejoin this thread, but the problem is, Bill, that Barry hasn't shown a lot of learned defence.

That's what's made this thread into car crash viewing - Barry putting forward undefendable cases and then signally failing to defend them: just moving on to the next rant without bothering to clear up the mess of the last one.

Steven,

The learned defense I had in mind was from the other side..............the postings refuting EC's assertions. These contain information that I, and probably other new members, would not have been exposed to without this thread. My own views have not been changed by the thread, they have been reinforced by the defense against EC's case. However the thread has made it clear to me that the emotions surrounding this issue are much greater than I previously realized.

Cheers, Bill

[Kate Wills]

Now lets all let this thread die a natural death.

Do you not think you are doing a disservice to the 306 you seek to honour by slinking away like this Barry?

They died an unnatural death, on that we are all agreed. You promised to say more about Pte Dennis, and other posters await replies too.

[Waffenlandser]

My participation in this thread is officialy over Kate. Heading off on a well deseved vacation and taking the grandkids to Grand Cayman. I need to get the stress levels down.

Perhaps at a time when this touchy subject surfaces, I may persue our argument. For some obscure reason you are hounding me over this one victim. I will reply in time. Rest assured. It is I who have battle fatigue at the moment. The wife is commenting how bitchy I have been over the last week.

*Now officially slinking off to the Caribbean for some fun in the sun*

All of you have a wonderful Christmas and shed some rememberance for our boys who shivered in the trenches on Xmas eve and were chastised by their officers for fraternising with the enemy.

[Kate Wills]

My participation in this thread is officialy over Kate.

Perhaps at a time when this touchy subject surfaces, I may persue our argument. For some obscure reason you are hounding me over this one victim.

No more than you are hounding us with the name of one victim, that of Beverstein. Why do you repeat his name in preference to Bateman or Dennis?

I am surprised that you have officially resigned from your own thread, but I hope you have a good holiday, and I look forward to your reply on your return.

[PMHart]

*Now officially slinking off to the Caribbean for some fun in the sun*

Goodbye, goodbye,

Wipe the tear, baby dear, from your eye,

Though it's hard to part I know,

You'll be tickled to death to go.

Don't cry, don't sigh,

There's a silver lining in the sky,

Bon soir old thing,

Cheerio, chin-chin,

Napoo, toodle-oo, goodbye!

Sniff, it really is so all too sad. Barry's suffered the slings and arrows of beng called a blithering idiot and in direct consequunce he's stressed out, his wife cruelly disrespects his angst and none but a few of the Great War Forum appreciate all his noble unselfish efforts on our behalf. Don't we collectively realise how lucky we have been to have the likes of 'Barry' to educate us on our collective sins 90 years ago?

Only a man lacking in ordinary decent empathy could fail to be mortified with guilt by the hounding he has suffered on the Great War Forum. Unfortunately I am no plutocrat able to join him on holiday in the Caribean but make no mistake I shall be waving a metaphorical tear stained hanky as he sails over our horizon. We shall not see his like again....

Au revoir mon petite soldat,

Pete xxx

[Dragon]

none but a few of the Great War Forum appreciate all his noble unselfish efforts on our behalf

That's ludicrous and cheap. Speaking personally, I defended his right not to be subjected to personal abuse. It doesn't mean I agree with his ideas or feel elevated by his debating style.

If some people had been subjected to the ongoing ridicule, baiting and mockery that he has, they would have left. I didn't think that this was that sort of community.

Gwyn

[PMHart]

Hi,

I was not personally abusing him I was laughing at him! Barry is pretty funny! Is there so much wrong in that!

I have a great mental image of 'Barry' sitting there polishing his lovely sharp bayonets while weeping silently as he remembers lost crimes against humanity!

Would you deprive me of that? Is all humour (granted normally poor attempts from me at least!) barred from the Great War Forum? Is Level 10 pomposity and transferred self-pity required from all participants at all times?

Pete

[Dragon]

No, but respecting fellow members is something we all signed up to.

[PMHart]

No, but respecting fellow members is something we all signed up to.

Hi 'Dragon',

I deeply respect 'Barry' for what he is - a man struggling to express his empathy for all the suffering of the Great War as particularly evinced by the SAD cases he so eloquently espouses; I just found him him jolly amusing at the same time. I'm really very sorry and hearby unreservedly apologise for any offence I have caused by being cheerful

It is indeed fortunate though that Douglas Haig was not actually a human being and therefore has no family - so there is chance of them being upset by the unpleasant remarks that Barry accidentally let slip in the course of his worthy diatribe - oh but that's different of course. We only have to respect members of the forum and not the dead who can't answer for themselves...

Pete

PS I am now scowling, clutching my head and looking sad all at the same time - is that better?

[George Armstrong Custer]

It is indeed fortunate though that Douglas Haig was not actually a human being and therefore has no family - so there is chance of them being upset by the unpleasant remarks that Barry accidentally let slip in the course of his worthy diatribe - oh but that's different of course. We only have to respect members of the forum and not the dead who can't answer for themselves...

I wasn't going to return to this thread, but well put Pete. I didn't see any of those who were crying foul at your accurate, though excessively mild, description of Bazza as a blithering idiot expressing disquiet over how Haig's 90-year-old son Dawyck might feel at Barry's description of his father as a 'murderer' cheerfully signing death warrants. Now that really was ludicrous and cheap, but apparently some think not as bad as calling the troll who wrote it a blithering idiot.

Gwyn, what you were defending was the freedom of speech of a troll - take a look at his kiss-off post to Kate which ought to resolve any doubts anyone had on that score.

[Guest]

Enfield collector,a few weeks ago, when your wife said "get out from under my feet,why don't you go and have a trawl through the forum?" she meant........

Enjoy your holiday ,like Dutchbarge said,some of us have learned from this,it's not all bad.

I for one will be reading up on the whole SAD issue as a result of this.

[Dragon]

I'm not defending freedom of speech, as it doesn't exist on this forum. It's the pack behaviour that I object to and I am certain I'm not alone.

I spent part of my working life managing people who were stupid. I don't recall ever needing to assert my intellectual superiority by calling them 'blithering idiots' to their face. Not that I'm saying that Barry is stupid, because I wouldn't know. You can only get away with it because this is the Internet and he's merely a few pixels on a screen.

Gwyn

[PMHart]

I'm not defending freedom of speech, as it doesn't exist on this forum. It's the pack behaviour that I object to and I am certain I'm not alone.

I spent part of my working life managing people who were stupid. I don't recall ever needing to assert my intellectual superiority by calling them 'blithering idiots' to their face. Not that I'm saying that Barry is stupid, because I wouldn't know. You can only get away with it because this is the Internet and he's a merely few pixels on a screen.

Jesus 'Dragon',

Listen to yourself - read your post again: look at what you are saying - you cheerfully call people who worked for you, probably earning less than you 'stupid'! How on earth do you get that level of intellectual arrogance? I've never met anyone I'd be certain of being intellectually superior to!!!! (Now surely we can agree there?)

There is no 'pack' except in your fevered imagination and I only said Bazza Babe was a blithering idiot IF he truly believed Haig signed hundreds of thousands of death warrants! He never answered just as he never answered any of the other points put to him!

By the way if you'd met me you would know that I certainly don't need to hide behind an anonymous identity on a computer to say something stupid! Please try not to be so macho on the forum, reign in your temper and as I say read your own posts!

Love and Peace Pete

[Ann Sinnott]

Enjoy your holiday Barry.

I too will be reading up on SAD - but also with an ear for those strong feelings on the other side...

I'd dearly like to know the truth about each of the 306.

Happy Christmas to you and yours.

Ann

PS I'll be listening to Silent Night Christmas 1915 by Jack Lynch.

[Neil Clark]

And openly insulting people and ridiculing them doesn't?

I think you overestimate the importance of this forum. It's an Internet message board. It may be the largest and most popular English language one, and it has among its members some very reputable published historians and some very diligent researchers with reuptations in their fields, but it isn't any more than an Internet forum. There's also a lot of light-weight historical discussion goes on too, and that's the nature of forums. A forum is a place where a small fish can feel very knowledgeable in his little pool and that, I suspect, is the basis of some people's membership of them.

What I see happening here is bullying. Many people see weaknesses in Barry's posts. Once the trend of personal insults, sneers and ridicule started, then others joined in, with the confidence of being part of the crowd giving them licence to say whatever they like to this particular contributor. The snide post linking to pictures of trolls is outrageous.

I don't like what I'm seeing and I want to disassociate myself from it. This isn't a forum where people are hounded into silence, whatever happens in others. And I would say that whether it's Barry or anyone else at the receiving end.

Gwyn

At last someone who speaks their mind and who doesn't just snipe behind peoples backs in a cowardly "mealy mouthed" manner. I totally agree with Dragon here. Bullying is bullying however you dress it up and I have often noticed how some individuals on forums like this one are led like cattle and hone in on weaker individuals who are being given a good kicking by the majority opinions.

Remember that many of the clever so called experts on this and other forums merely have at their disposal a huge library of expensive books to refer to. Even I can appear clever sometimes

Try not to be intimidated by those who YOU percieve to be cleverer than YOU.

I'm glad I stay away from threads like this one! Besides, if I'm honest I don't understand 90% of it's content in any case.

Back to non-coms.... PEACE....Bye

[dutchbarge]

take a look at his kiss-off post to Kate which ought to resolve any doubts anyone had on that score.

Must agree that exiting the thread in that way is pretty bad............on several levels. I don't believe a nolo contendere defense cuts it. Members who have reasonably questioned EC's postings deserve either a rebuttal or a concession to their position, especially as EC has advocated such incendary viewpoints.

As one who has crashed and burned a few times myself I've found that admitting defeat has brought forth a great deal of helpful guidance from Forum members on how to gain a better understanding of issues such as these.

And as one who is going to be at home this holiday season pinching pennies I really didn't need to know about toddling off to the Caymens. Although I'm sure EC worked hard for his readies he didn't need to rub it in. Barry, I'll expect you to pay for the beers when we come to Texas.

Cheers, Bill

[PMHart]

Hi Bill,

I had some salutary thrashings in public on the forum when it has indeed turned out that my expressed opinions were just wrong and I think you're right - the bulk of the Forum is made up of very helpful people. Certainly some members of the Gallipoli group such as Chris Roberts (Crunchy) were very helpful in explaining some complex issues of the Anzac landing in a way I that I eventually came to both understand and appreciate. Some of the experts such as Robert Dunlop have a breadth of knowledge whcih is literally staggering. The subject of the Great War is such that we all have a lot to learn - from the first poster to the 'Brigadier' - real or imagined!!!! All I want is people to be fair and not denigrate the reputations, brains and characters of soldiers of the Great War (whether Field Marshal or Private) without due evidence. It would of course help if they replied sensibly to points made as well!!

Some threads such as this one have been so very extreme that I tried to be funny because I thought it was literally unbelievable that anyone in 2008 could spout such rubbish! But, as has been pointed out, perhaps we're all at different stages of learning/have different opinions/are just plain different and I will now lay off for a period. It has also been pointed out (many, many times Arnie) that I am not funny!! I apologise to our moderator Kate Wills for probably causing more trouble than I am worth!

After all there is always someone who knows more about everything than any of us do!

Pete