Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 1 April , 2003 Share Posted 1 April , 2003 Does anyone know or has come across any text or statistics concerned with casualties caused by flechettes being dropped from aeroplanes? I would be very interested in any information from both Allied and German sources. Many thanks, Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 I have come across little text and no statistics on flechettes. I do recall reading a discussion as to whether it was better to stand upright or lie down when under flechette attack. The theory was that if you stood up, the missile went a long way through you, whereas, if you lay down, though the area was increased, it went the short way through and much increased your survival chances. The steel helmet would change things, I suppose. (Would a flechette pierce a helmet? I would think so) Did the use of flechettes get more or less popular as the war went on? Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Was it not said "I need a flechette like I need a hole in the head"? Oh well, perhaps not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Oddly, I`ve never read a description by anyone who`d undergone flechette attack. It must have been bloody frightening! When you consider that a human body reaches a terminal velocity of around 120mph, the flechette would reach a much higher velocity because of its streamlining and weight. I wonder what the optimum height would have been for dropping them to get best accuracy/speed combination. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 They must have been useless so people stopped using them after a very short time and had boxes of them left over. How else can you explain the huge numbers of "genuine" ones you see for sale these days? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 Oddly, I`ve never read a description by anyone who`d undergone flechette attack. It must have been bloody frightening! When you consider that a human body reaches a terminal velocity of around 120mph, the flechette would reach a much higher velocity because of its streamlining and weight. I wonder what the optimum height would have been for dropping them to get best accuracy/speed combination. Phil B not weight, I fear. It doesn't come into it as far as I am aware. And if weight matters, that would help the human body along. I reckon streamlining is what matters. A lump of coal the same weight might be a bit slolwer, but what the heck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 LB:- I think it`s a matter of weight and wind resistance. It`s the reason a lead weight falls faster than a feather (in air). Iron is about 5 times as dense as flesh, and the shape of the dart gives it a very small frontal area. The dart will accelerate until its weight equals the drag of the air. Unless, of course any aeronautical engineers out there.......! Phil B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 This, from "Corporals All", privately published by Martin Sidney Fox. Fox enlisted into the Royal Engineers Special Brigade in 1915 as a Cpl. By 1917 he was a Sgt in "C" Company, which on the 14th/15th May, 1917 was at Loos. The diary extract , and the narrative, describes an aerial dart, or flechette attack. Fox's section were preparing to launch a gas attack: "... I in charge of right-half of Section...Cpls. Hand, Gatland, Kimmence...watches synchronised at 12.15 a.a.m in dug-out, top of 68 Boyau...all preparations completed...wind very slow just before zero 1.a.m. ...slightly north of west... all turned on, and observed ...first light at Z+2; machine-gun and sniping at Z+4; aerial darts, mortars, and whizz bangs at Z + 7. Bombardment very severe... hundreds of aerial darts...quietened down, then increase again...disconnected about 2.a.m and removed pipes to Supports... difficulty with Gatland's Oojahs...could not turn off properly, had to be buried. Sgt Wilde and I patrolled Line after daybreak...Pnr. Johnson hit badly in arm... to dressing station in agony...Saw Foley in Front Line dug-out, quite dead, struck in face by aerial dart. Sun came out gloriously...so peaceful after the awful night." Fox goes on the say "I was safe, abounding in health and hope, anticipating as always the prospect of a return to friends and safety. But Foley?... I saw him lying in a shelter, clearly visible in that beautiful dawn, sleeping his last sleep, his uniform caked with mud, and the fatal gashes in his head and chest. It was a tragedy common enough. He had been a stalwart soldier, tackling all duties cheefully, doing his best, and I felt strangely warmed towards him. I touched his cheek, and his hands which had toiled so enduringly; I felt the icy coldness of death. In that hour of dawn he lay unheeding, finished with his comrades, with all this world, while far away in his home town his people slept in pleasant warmth and safety. Soon they would arise to another day, the present tragedy unknown until the speedy message told them he would return no more." Pioneer Thomas Foley is buried in Philsosphe British Cemetery, Mazingarbe. Martin Fox was commissioned later in 1917 and survived the war. He became a science teacher and died of a heart attack whilst tending his garden at his home in Eastbourne in 1966. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 21 April , 2004 Share Posted 21 April , 2004 So they were still being used in May 17, Terry? This contradicts Tom`s claim that they "stopped using them after a very short time". I must admit, I thought they would stop using them when a machine gun was available to enable them to fire down into a trench. Thank you, gents. Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 22 April , 2004 Share Posted 22 April , 2004 LB:- I think it`s a matter of weight and wind resistance. It`s the reason a lead weight falls faster than a feather (in air). Iron is about 5 times as dense as flesh, and the shape of the dart gives it a very small frontal area. The dart will accelerate until its weight equals the drag of the air. Unless, of course any aeronautical engineers out there.......! Phil B. only physicists/ meteorologists I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 22 April , 2004 Share Posted 22 April , 2004 So they were still being used in May 17, Terry? This contradicts Tom`s claim that they "stopped using them after a very short time". Not so much a claim, Phil, more a comment on the fact that some "retail outlets" seem to have a steady supply of them for sale! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Holstein Posted 22 April , 2004 Share Posted 22 April , 2004 I have somewhere an account by a young German from a heavy gun battery in the Spincourt Wood area (Meuse, between Etain and Verdun) in, I think, Feb. 1915. He describes the panic that set in when the flechettes began to fall. Everyone ran for cover. He was that day employed as driver for two important visitors and was amused because he was under cover and didn't have to run and they were not under cover and had to stop being dignified and run. He describes them as lethal if you couldn't get out of the way and were unlucky enough to be hit. Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biplane pilot Posted 23 April , 2004 Share Posted 23 April , 2004 I'd have to dig it out of my balloon file, but I believe there were at least two French fletchette attacks on German balloons in 1915. I believe one was successful in that the bag was deflated but of course it wouldn't burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 I am doing some work on the war diaries of the 9th Bn East Surreys in 1916/17. In addition to usual references to enemy whizz-bangs, Minnies, Rum Jars and etc the diarist makes frequent mention of bombardment by German "aerial darts" - or simply "darts". This through ignorance or a senior moment this seems a new term to me. Can any of the experts advise me what they were or was it a generic term? Any help appreciated as usual. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Williams Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Hi David, some years ago I used to help Peter Liddell with his archives here in Sunderland before he moved to Leeds. During this time I came across a number of aerial darts which had been donated. They were used early in WW1 without much success and the types I handled were roughly twice the size of of a dart (as in dart board) and made entirely from metal. Cheers Barry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 I am doing some work on the war diaries of the 9th Bn East Surreys in 1916/17. In addition to usual references to enemy whizz-bangs, Minnies, Rum Jars and etc the diarist makes frequent mention of bombardment by German "aerial darts" - or simply "darts". This through ignorance or a senior moment this seems a new term to me. Can any of the experts advise me what they were or was it a generic term? Any help appreciated as usual. David I believe the correct terminology for these was "Flechettes",1/2" Steel Rods approximately 9" long,fluted with "flights" @ one end & a sharp point the other,designed I think to hinder Infantry & Cavalry,as dropped from a few hundred feet up the anticipated horror would have been horrendous~~~~~~Everybody duck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Many thanks guys. Just for clarication these darts were fired from opposing trenches - not air dropped. So. what was used to fire them. They appparently came over singly & in clusters Typical WD entry states " At 11am mist cleared & our snipers hit two Bosches (sic). Enemy fired aerial darts & Minnies on to our lrft & centre coys furing the afternoon * destroyed shelter in NO 5 Crater POST". I am aware of the use of darts & flechettes from aircraft - but this is definitely trench on trench stuff and appears to be fired from a trench based projector rather than artillery further back. Further comment appreciated David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyDick Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Have seen an article on Flechettes in one of my early War Illustrated (1915-ish); will keep an eye out for it. Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 The 'aerial darts' referred to here were not flechettes, but the German Granatenwerfer trench mortar weapon; a type of spigot mortar used at battalion level. It is a pineapple style cylinder bomb, with a large tube with fins. I have found many live examples of these over the years, especially around Courcelette; they are best left alone, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 14 June , 2004 Share Posted 14 June , 2004 Doh...sorry David, I did not read your opening post carefully enough. There was an in-depth discussion on the forum a month or so ago where myself and others posted lots of pictures and info on the Granatenwerfer weapon system. Not sure of the link but a quick search should find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 15 June , 2004 Share Posted 15 June , 2004 Great guys, many thaks. My particular interest has long been the 'Regular' army of 1914/early 15. So in dealing with 16/17 I am coming up with a number of the newer terms & weapons with which I am relatively unfamiliar. Doubtless I will be back with more Doh questions. Thanks again. Regards David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 I was always unsure how the aerial darts you sometimes see in museums were used. The Swiss Air force Museum has a high-tec display which made it all clear. I thought I’d share: Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montbrehain Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 was it only the beastly hun that used these ? or did our fine upright chaps stoop so low ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Poilu Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 I don't think that display is very accurate - as far as I understand they were tipped out of boxes in the hundreds. And they were certainly used by all sides - I have a French, British and German example. They were used in later conflicts too, throughout the twentieth century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 30 July , 2006 Share Posted 30 July , 2006 Giles, My photograph shows an actual example. Perhaps even with an original ww1 hand in the glove. You only so a drawing, hence I can not accept your evidence. Sorry. Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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