French Foreign Legion Service Records?

[curranl]

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of getting a Service Record on a French Foreign Legionnaire? I'm researching a local man, John Barrett, who enlisted on 10/9/14 at Dunkirk and was killed in action on 20/4/1917 at Auberive. He was awarded the Croix de Guerre. If he had served in the British Army I'd have a fair chance of digging out some information, but I have absolutely no idea where to start with a Foreign Legionnaire.

Regards,

Liam.

[auchonvillerssomme]

Click on this

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.go...page=base_liste

Mick

[curranl]

Hi Mick,

Many thanks for that. It led to a one page document, much the same as a CWGC entry. Do you know if the Foreign Legion has an archive and is there access to it? I was hoping to track down a Service Record (or equivalent).

Regards,

Liam.

[ChrisC]

Try writing to these guys:

museelegionetrangere@hotmail.com or E-mail : center-documentaire@comle.terre.defense.gouv.fr

They may be able to help.

Chris C

[curranl]

Hi Chris,

Many thanks. I'll send them an email and see where it gets me.

Regards,

Liam.

[Landsturm]

From French Foreign Legion 1914–45 (Osprey Publishing, Martin Windrow & Mike Chappell)

Little something about the action itself:

After a brief rest the regiment went back into the trenches, holding several section throughout winter 1916-17: command passed to Lt. Col. Duriez. In March 1917 the Germans pulled back from a huge salient between Arras and Soissons, and Gen. Nivelle's much-vaunted April offensive fell on their newly prepared Siegfried Line defences.

At dawn on 17 April the RMLE attacked the ruins of Auberive in the Suippes Valley during the so-called battle of Moronvilliers, on the right flank of the Chemin des Dames offensive. The terrible lessons of 1914-16 had been learned to some extent, and assaults were now a good deal more sophisticated. Artillery preparation was far more thorough; each battalion had its own man-portable light machine gun; the men were trained in effective minor tactics to co-ordinate the fire and movement of mutually supporting machine gun teams, rifle- and hand-grenade squads and riflemen; and assaults tried to infiltrate companies between stubborn positions rather than attempting a single-wave advance. Despite all this, the Nivelles offensive was a disaster for most of the divisions committed.

After three days of clawing their way from shellhole to shellhole in deep mud the légionnaires took the main enemy trench line at Auberive, though fighting continued until the 22nd; the regiment used more than 50,000 grenades in these five days. The legendary Adjudant-Chef Mader, of German birth, won the Légion d'Honneur for driving back most of a company of Saxon infantry and taking a battery of six guns, at the head of just ten légionnaires.

After recuperation at Mailly during May command passed to Lt. Col. Paul Rollet, a veteran of the desert Mounted Companies.

[Michael Johnson]

I would suspect that the Legion keeps the service records. For the rest of the French Army they are sent to the Archives of the Department where the subject was living when he became liable for military service (20 years old).

Obviously if you're in the Foreign Legion you have no home Department.

[curranl]

Hello All,

Thanks for the contributions. I've sent an email to the Legion Museum, but no reply as yet. I would assume that (as Michael suggests) the Legion holds the Service Records since, by definition, Legionnaires would not be citizens of France.

Regards,

Liam.

[Chris_Baker]

Liam, did you ever get anywhere with this? A chap I am researching is reputed to have been with the FFL before he enlisted into the British Army. None of my sources or references are clear on whether FFL records exist or where.

[SiegeGunner]

Try writing to these guys:

museelegionetrangere@hotmail.com or E-mail : center-documentaire@comle.terre.defense.gouv.fr

The first address is correct, but the second one should be: centre-documentaire@comle.terre.defense.gouv.fr, so an e-mail sent to the address as given is unlikely to have got there.

[Michael Johnson]

A posting by a Legion veteran over at GMIC strongly suggests that you'll get nowhere trying to get personal information out of the Legion. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=215285

[healdav]

A posting by a Legion veteran over at GMIC strongly suggests that you'll get nowhere trying to get personal information out of the Legion. http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?s=&showtop...st&p=215285

Too right.

The Legion is a law unto itself even today. I want to get into their personnel records and even a member of the French Senate is having difficulty getting permission for me to get into them - they are in or near Orange.

[Chris_Baker]

Another Legionnaire has come up in my work. He re-enlisted into the British Army in France in 1915. If anyone has enjoyed a better experience in obtaining FFL records than is described above (and I got nowhere when I tried this before) I would be most interested.

[CROONAERT]

Hello All,

I was wondering if anyone has any experience of getting a Service Record on a French Foreign Legionnaire? I'm researching a local man, John Barrett, who enlisted on 10/9/14 at Dunkirk and was killed in action on 20/4/1917 at Auberive. He was awarded the Croix de Guerre. If he had served in the British Army I'd have a fair chance of digging out some information, but I have absolutely no idea where to start with a Foreign Legionnaire.

Regards,

Liam.

Liam. Forget the Legion archives. The (few) personal records that they do have for 1914-18 are in a bit of a mess and I doubt that they are much concerned with casual enquiries from abroad.

It is, however, possible to work out Barrett's service from other sources that are openly available (histories, the various JMO's, etc ) and from what is publically accessable in France (Liste Matricules, etc... great for volunteers but less so for conscripts). With his date and place of enlistment known, plus a bit of cross-referencing, a pretty precise history can be constructed. The only possible error in the following (posted today in regards to a seperate query on the GWF) is that any woundings, leave, hospital stays, etc cannot be discovered. However, in the absence of any actual record, this is probably as good as it gets....

Enlisted early September 1914 (his number suggests first week but within 3 days isn't bad!!! ) into the 3e regiment de marche de la 1er Regiment Etranger, seeing service on the Somme in the early part of 1915 (Frise, la Grenouillere sector, etc). Transferred in July 1915 to 2e regiment de marche de la 1er Regiment Etranger. On 11th November 1915 (following the amalgamations), he transferred to the 1er battaillon of the Regiment de Marche de la Legion Etranger (RMLE) and saw service during the 1916 Somme battle with these (including the famous assault on Belloy en Santerre on 4th July 1916). Transferred to the 3e bataillon RMLE (possibly following promotion to corporal after the Somme battle) moved to the Champagne front and , as part of the 10e Compagnie, took part in the 'Battle of Moronvilliers' from 17th April 1917. Killed in action on the day that they took Auberive along with 21 other ranks and 1 officer.

Precise movements within the dates mentioned above can be deciphered from the JMO's.

Dave

[seaforths]

Liam. Forget the Legion archives. The (few) personal records that they do have for 1914-18 are in a bit of a mess and I doubt that they are much concerned with casual enquiries from abroad.It is, however, possible to work out Barrett's service from other sources that are openly available (histories, the various JMO's, etc ) and from what is publically accessable in France (Liste Matricules, etc... great for volunteers but less so for conscripts). With his date and place of enlistment known, plus a bit of cross-referencing, a pretty precise history can be constructed. The only possible error in the following (posted today in regards to a seperate query on the GWF) is that any woundings, leave, hospital stays, etc cannot be discovered. However, in the absence of any actual record, this is probably as good as it gets....Enlisted early September 1914 (his number suggests first week but within 3 days isn't bad!!! ) into the 3e regiment de marche de la 1er Regiment Etranger, seeing service on the Somme in the early part of 1915 (Frise, la Grenouillere sector, etc). Transferred in July 1915 to 2e regiment de marche de la 1er Regiment Etranger. On 11th November 1915 (following the amalgamations), he transferred to the 1er battaillon of the Regiment de Marche de la Legion Etranger (RMLE) and saw service during the 1916 Somme battle with these (including the famous assault on Belloy en Santerre on 4th July 1916). Transferred to the 3e bataillon RMLE (possibly following promotion to corporal after the Somme battle) moved to the Champagne front and , as part of the 10e Compagnie, took part in the 'Battle of Moronvilliers' from 17th April 1917. Killed in action on the day that they took Auberive along with 21 other ranks and 1 officer.Precise movements within the dates mentioned above can be deciphered from the JMO's.Dave

What do you think my chances might be of finding 3-4 men that joined the Foreign Legion and then transferred to the Flying Corps - Lafeyette Escadrille? I managed to find their records for their air service via the link in post number 2. Do you think the French Foreign Legion might have records for them?

[CROONAERT]

Do you think the French Foreign Legion might have records for them?

No... the records will have been transferred to the Aéronautique Militaire when they made the transfer. (I know that many people refer to the 'Lafayette' (or 'Américaine') escadrille as the 'flying branch' of the Légion Étrangère... ... but it wasn't!).

There may be something, however, if they didn't actually transfer (some members, similar to what also happened in the RFC, were attached without actually transferring). I've got details of quite a decent number of Légionnaires....some of whom made a transfer to the Aéronautique Militaire (various units). PM me with some details and I'll see if I have anything on them if you wish.

Dave

[MaureenE]

Perhaps the records for the French Foreign Legion would be with located within the the general military archives

Service historique de la Défense [sHD] French military archives. The military personnel archives (Centre des archives du personnel militaire (CAPM)) is at Pau. French language website.

Cheers

Maureen

[seaforths]

Thanks for the link Maureen. I tried it and ended up with a link to the site where I downloaded their aeronautical records. It was a bit challenging and as it was in French, I did my usual thing which is to muddle through. I actually managed to find the aeronautical records of one of them before I noticed a Union Jack in the corner of the webpage! That helped but by the time I found the English version, I'd done the difficult bit

Thanks Dave, I will PM tomorrow with their details on what I've managed to find on their service so far. I need to check a couple of things on them. They were all American.

[healdav]

As far as I am aware ALL the Foreign Legion records are held at Aubagne, in the south of France where they have a museum.

They are pretty much inaccessible to pretty well anyone. At least a French senator was just ignored when he tried to get me in a couple of years ago.

One possibility is that some, all or any of these men are mentioned in the War Diaries for some reason (when there was nothing in particular going on personal stories or information do tend to fill the pages). All The War Diaries are on-line:

http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/fr/article.php?larub=2&titre=journaux-des-unites-engagees-dans-la-premiere-guerre-mond

Of course, those who died are on-line with their death certificates as members of the French army.

[seaforths]

Thanks for the link healdav. I think it will take me a while to get my head around that because as soon as you go to the search page, it reverts to French language again...I don't know for sure that three of these men joined the French Foreign Legion prior to becoming flyers - only one of them seems to have a little background (very little) that indicates that he left the ambulance service for the FFL and requested a transfer to the aero branch which was granted.

I am wondering, particularly with one of these men, whether it would have been possible to apply to join the aero branch without going down the French Foreign Legion route and then requesting a transfer (which I do believe one of the three did). The dates for one of them arriving in France don't seem to fit into a timescale that would accommodate him serving any time with the FFL prior to being accepted into the aero training programme. However he tells his story after the war of time he spent in the the trenches fighting for the French and I'm not convinced they are entirely true. What doesn't help his case is that he tells two very different versions of his escape from Germany. One account given to the American Red Cross when he reaches Berne and the other, more elaborate and very different version after the war and published in the press as he goes on the road and delivers talks on the subject.

[CROONAERT]

As far as I am aware ALL the Foreign Legion records are held at Aubagne, in the south of France where they have a museum.... ...They are pretty much inaccessible to pretty well anyone....

This was, indeed, the case up to a few years ago but, about 2(?) years ago, some records were released to departmental areas of enlistment.

Aubagne never retained full records of ALL members anyway - only those who completed their service ('for France') with the L.E. (ie. if a soldier was killed with the L.E., was invalided out due to wounds, completed his service terms and 'retired' or was transferred to the army of another nation (such as an American transferring to the AEF in 1917), then records were retained. But, if a soldier enlisted in the L.E. and then transferred to another (French) regiment, then the record sheets followed them.) As mentioned, though, the basic record sheets were centralised and then redistributed to enlistment areas a short while ago (though it can sometimes be a little more complex to work out exactly how to access an 'E.V.' soldier (as the majority of members of the L.E. were (pre-1915 anyway)) in these departmental records than it is for a compulsory service soldier.

The soldiers' individual 'Livrets Matricule' - another source from which to obtain very complete service details - were retained by the regiment until final demobilisation or death (whichever came first!). Though the majority were returned to the soldier (eventually), those that couldn't be returned (which would be the case for a large number of the foreign volunteers in the L.E.) were held at Pau (eventually!)... though I believe that they are now located in one of the Parisian archives.

Dave

[Loader]

From reading over the yrs the first Americans to join the FFL did so when told the French Army would not take US citizens but the Legion would so they joined it. They wanted to fight for France & most had no notion of flying. But after some very tough fighting & trench warfare some decided flying was better so they transferred to the flying service. Later volunteers who got the idea to fly from publicity for they Lafayettes found the fast track to training was via the FFL. They joined & were qucikly sent to flight training & saw little or no service with the Legion. This is a bare bones explanation of what the process seemed to be. Variatons of course existed.

[CROONAERT]

From reading over the yrs the first Americans to join the FFL did so when told the French Army would not take US citizens but the Legion would so they joined it....

Though the very first American citizen to actually die in combat during the war was killed in action whilst serving in a metropolitan French infantry regiment (strangely enough, the very last of the August/September 1914 American volunteers for the L.E. to be killed in action during the war died in October 1918 whilst serving in this same regiment after transferring to it in November 1915. A number of other Americans transferred to this regiment (which can also claim several British subjects on its casualty lists...including an officer killed in action on August 21st 1914...amongst other nationalities) at the same time).

A good number of the 'Lafayette Flying Corps' (which includes the Lafayette escadrille) joined it from the American Field Service rather than the L.E. (after all, one of its founders was an AFS man!).

Dave