Egypt 1915

[Guest LancsFus]

I'm doing some research on my Great Grandfather, Walter Roberts, who was a Gunner and later Bombardier in the Royal Field Artillery. Like many on here, I have so many more questions than answers, but I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the initial facts I have.I understand the RFA can be quite a difficult Regiment to research, and like many of his generation, he seldom talked of his war service, but its a journey I want to undertake for my Father, who was very close to his Grandad, and I would dearly like to be able to present my Dad with something more than the bare facts I already have.Due to his medal card stating (3) Egypt, I think this is probably the better forum to ask questions, so here are the facts that I have to hand:

Name: Walter Roberts

Rank: Gunner/Bombardier (RFA)

Number: 62544

Date of Birth: 17/05/1887

Date of enlistment: 15/10/1910

Place of enlistment: Hyde, Manchester

Entry into theatre: 02/04/1915

Place of Entry: (3) Egypt

Date of Discharge: 06/02/19

Pension document date: 19/01/23

Pension document no.: 3/MR/7461

From what I can deduce from his area of enlistment, his Regiment, his date of entry into theatre and the theatre of war he went to (Egypt),that he would have been part of the 2nd East Lancs Brigade RFA. I suppose this line of thought would be redundant if there are other possibilities, so my first question would be "Is that a fair assumption?" (most information from the Long, Long Trail and National Archives). (One caveat I can add is that he lived in Radcliffe, and it would make more sense geographically for him to have joined the Bolton artillery, so does the place of enlistment not necessarily mean anything?)

If so, what were the artillery doing out in Egypt in spring 1915? And why? Old family stories suggest he was at Gallipoli, but my father, who was very close to his grandad, says he never mentioned this in his presence.If my assumption is correct, then 2nd Brigade stayed only in Egypt , and would tally with my Fathers story.

Secondly, the "facts" clearly show him to be in the Middle East, so what would the job of a gunner/bombardier entail in this theatre of war? Would it be different to the western front, in it being a more mobile war?

Thirdly, my Great Grandfather was missing his left arm below the elbow, 3 fingers on his right hand, and was covered in shrapnel wounds. The records we have say multiple G.S.W.(I assume Gun Shot Wounds), but again colloquial and physical evidence suggests shell/shrapnel. Is this consistant? I intend to take my Dad to Kew at some point to further expand on what I have, but the internet has so far given me very little information about him; is there anywhere I could find his date and place of wounding? His discharge papers state 1919, but I assume that is simply due to the administration of his pension.

Any help on this, however large or small, would be greatly appreciated. Also all apologies to the mods if this is considered the wrong forum, I felt with me placing him in a particular theatre at a particular time would be more relevant here.

[kloughnane]

LancsFus,

You may want to consider getting a copy of the book "Forgotten Soldiers Of The First World War" by David R Woodward. This should give you an overview of what was happening in Egypt and Palastine.

Regards,

Kev Loughnane

[centurion]

In 1915 they would be dealing with Turkish forces in what is today the Sinai and repelling their attempts to cross the Suez canal into Egypt. In 1916 the British took the offensive moving across the Canal. The war thereafter would be periods of WF type assaults against entrenched Turkish positions followed by periods of more mobile warfare until the Turks (and some German and KuK forces) stood in another series of entrenched positions and the cycle continued. There was also a 'side show' in the Western Desert against the Sennusi, a Libyan based tribal grouping that had been egged on by the Turks to attack Egypt.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum LancsFus,

Please could you list what the records you have show and what they are. I'm a little confused as to what is your supposition and what was in actual official records.

The Suez Canal Zone was a vital area for the British to defend. It knocked months off the sea time for getting to India and Australia (your great grandfathers date of entry is only weeks before the start of the Gallipoli campaign). If the Turks could deny the use of the Canal to the British vital supplies and reinforcements would take longer to arrive. In 1915 there was also campaigning in the Sudan.

It would have been possible for his to have been wounded in 1919 as there were several active campaigns, including Russia and Mesoptamia (Kurdistan & Iraq).

[centurion]

He could well have been wounded well before 1919 but not discharged until he had been shipped home and his hospital treatment was completed. I have seen other examples of wounds from shell splinters or shrapnel described as GSW (an artillery piece is a gun after all). It would certainly suggest that he had been involved in the main Gaza Palestine conflict (the enemy in the Western Desert and Sudan had virtually no artillery). There were conventional artillery exchanges in this campaign. It can be frustratingly difficult to find out when a wound was received, my grand father was wounded twice on the WF but I can find no further detail.

[Guest LancsFus]

Welcome to the forum LancsFus,

Please could you list what the records you have show and what they are. I'm a little confused as to what is your supposition and what was in actual official records.

The Suez Canal Zone was a vital area for the British to defend. It knocked months off the sea time for getting to India and Australia (your great grandfathers date of entry is only weeks before the start of the Gallipoli campaign). If the Turks could deny the use of the Canal to the British vital supplies and reinforcements would take longer to arrive. In 1915 there was also campaigning in the Sudan.

It would have been possible for his to have been wounded in 1919 as there were several active campaigns, including Russia and Mesoptamia (Kurdistan & Iraq).

Cheers for the replies guys.

In answer to the first question, the documents I have are his Medal Card, pension and discharge papers. The latter 2 are almost illegible, but they do give his date and place of enlistment (1910, Hyde). I used that information along with the date of entry into theatre to conclude that he was probably in the 2nd East Lancs Brigade RFA. I used a little bit of assumption, as my reading indicated troops earmarked for Gallipoli were sent first to Lemnos. Some further reading indicates that some troops were indeed sent to Egypt before heading for the peninsula, but not 2nd Brigade, who were retained.

However, I don't have conclusive proof that he was definitely in that Brigade, and Geographically it would have made more sense him being in the Bolton Artillery (3rd East Lancs Brig), but I'm not sure how relevant where you lived was to the unit you served in? It may also prove quite difficult to ascertain, as it appears that 2nd and 4th East Lancs RFA were broken up sometime in late 1916/early 1917.

My Father has the documents, but unfortunately is away at the moment, if someone could instruct me how to post them , I could scan them and put them on this thread.

Again, many thanks for the replies.