centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 I've just retrieved the MIC for my Great Uncle Captain Sidney Hausell Kirby. It shows an entry for the 1914 -15 star against which is written TFWM - what does this mean? I am surprised that he would be eligible as the same card shows his entry into theatre of war (Egypt) as March 1916. This is consistent with a photo I have of him in the Western Desert in the campaign against the Senussi. Could he have served in the ranks in 1914/15 and have another card? It seems unlikely as he wasn't a professional soldier and was first commissioned in the Yeomanry. There are notes on the back of the card re his application for the medal (in 1922) but the writing is such that I think it would take Bletchly Park to decode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izzy Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Territorial forces war medal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Centurion If you look at the MIC closely you'll see that the Star is crossed out, TWFM being inserted in it's place. As he didn't qualify for the Star he was awarded the TWFM instead. Qualification criteria for the TWFM from the NA website.... "The Territorial Force War Medal 1914-1919 was awarded to members of the Territorial Force only. To qualify, the recipient had to have been a member of the Territorial Force on or prior to 30 September 1914, and to have served in an operational theatre outside of the United Kingdom between 5 August 1914 and 11 November 1918." Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Thanks both - makes perfect sense. Looks as if he was in the Yeomanry at the start of the war or earlier but didn't go overseas until early 1916. Now I've got to find out why, when the rest of his family was in Lincolnshire, he was joining the yeomanry in Glamorgan. His address after the war was in Wales so he must have relocated at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Thanks both - makes perfect sense. Looks as if he was in the Yeomanry at the start of the war or earlier but didn't go overseas until early 1916. Now I've got to find out why, when the rest of his family was in Lincolnshire, he was joining the yeomanry in Glamorgan. His address after the war was in Wales so he must have relocated at some point. Cherche la famme! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 but didn't go overseas until early 1916. There is no evidence that he didn't go overseas before March 1916, only that he didn't enter a theatre of war. Territorial units were sent overseas to relieve regular battalions on garrison duty, such as in India, those duties did not qualify as being in a theatre of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2008 There is no evidence that he didn't go overseas before March 1916, only that he didn't enter a theatre of war. Territorial units were sent overseas to relieve regular battalions on garrison duty, such as in India, those duties did not qualify as being in a theatre of war. Well given that his unit as listed on the MIC didn't go overseas until late 1915 I'd say that was evidence enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 It should be noted that, to qualify for the TFWM, a man must have:- 1/ Undertaken, on or before 30 Sept 1914, to serve outside the UK. 2/ Served outside the UK between 4th August 1914 and midnight 11th/12th November 1918. 3/ Been ineligible for either the 1914 or 1914/15 star. The significant one is 1/, in that he had signed up to serve abroad early in the war. A Kitchener volunteer of September 1914 would have nothing to show his similar willingness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 There's a discrepantcy between late 1915 and March 1916 and there is the possibility that he transferred from a unit for example garrisoning Gibraltar. You have evidence for the unit, not the man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 9 2008, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A Kitchener volunteer of September 1914 would have nothing to show his similar willingness! Their terms and conditions of service were different; it was assumend that Kitchener volunteers would serve abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2008 There's a discrepantcy between late 1915 and March 1916 and there is the possibility that he transferred from a unit for example garrisoning Gibraltar. Not since I have found a group photo of the officers in the UK (presumably taken before the 1st Glamorgan Yeomanry left for Egypt) with him in it. In any case if he'd started with a different unit this would surely show on the MIC? Why he arrived a few months after the rest of his unit I don't know - bringing out the last batch of newly trained men? Since he was in the Western Desert (as a photograph of him with his own notes on the back shows) he must have been in the detachment of the unit that was attached to the ICC whilst the rest of the Glamorgans in Egypt were converted to infantry and sent to the Gaza front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Their terms and conditions of service were different; it was assumend that Kitchener volunteers would serve abroad. But the Kitchener volunteer finished with only 2 medals and the TF man 3 if the vagaries of war didn`t send the K man abroad in 1915. And they did resent it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 9 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But the Kitchener volunteer finished with only 2 medals and the TF man 3 if the vagaries of war didn`t send the K man abroad in 1915. And they did resent it! Possibly the difference was that when he undertook to serve abroad the territorial man would in most cases not only be willing but ready to go having already been trained before the war whereas the Kitchener man still had to undergo some training before he could go. In other words the terriers and yeomen had put some personal effort in before the war started so as to provide the country with a defence. Don't know if that justifies an extra medal buts its the only explanation I can think off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryBettsMCDCM Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 9 2008, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A Kitchener volunteer of September 1914 would have nothing to show his similar willingness! Save that a 1914 K1~3 man would have most likely have served O/S before 1916 & wouldnt have had the option of declining Overseas Service as the TF did,being primarily a "Home Defence" organisation until the outbreak of War,Kitchener's men all volunteered to Fight!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 I've tried to raise the Medal Card on Ancestry in order to comment, but A. refuses to credit that anyone surnamed Kirby received medals, never mind a Capt. Sidney! So, sight unseen, I'm not surprised that an officer of the Glamorgan Yeomanry reaches Egypt in March 1916. All the Welsh Yeomanries did so (Glamorgan, Denbighshire, Montgomeryshire, and Pembrokeshire) with the exception of the 1914-raised Welsh Horse, who made it to Gallipoli earlier and therefore had the Star. It would be unusual to find 1914-15 Stars to those four outfits (I've only come across one, to a Denbighshire Yeo. officer who was seconded to ferry horses to France). The Yeomanries all landed in Egypt between about 15th and 20th March 1916. Not having served anywhere else, a fair proportion of their personnel accordingly qualified for the TFWM, as long as they'd signed as being willing to undertake overseas service before the end of Sept. 1914. Maybe I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick, however, and we're not talking about the Glamorgans but something else! If your relative stayed with the Glamorgans until their conversion to the 24th Welsh Regt in 1917, one of the Forum pals specializes in WW1 Welsh Regt officers and might be able to give you further info (PM me if needed). LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Could he have served in the ranks in 1914/15 The answer to this is definitely yes, although not overseas apparently. I read the London Gazette entry for his commission as stating he was a Private in the Glamorgan Yeomanry before being commissioned as Second Lieutenant in the same. If he had transferred from another unit the entry would state which unit he came from. Glamorgan. Private Sidney Hansell Kirby to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 15th April, 1915. Link to Gazette is Here The back of his card shows he applied for a 1914/15 Star, British War Medal & Victory Medal on 4th September 1922. The fact that the Star is crossed through and replaced by the TWFM suggests that it was proved he was not entitled to the Star as he hadn't served overseas in a theatre of war during the qualifying period but had made the commitment before September 1914 to do so. This was obviously the case as the 1/1st Glamorgan Yeomanry didn't go to Egypt until March 1916 (Sidney went out with the rest of the unit, not as a later replacement). Regards Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 9 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2008 Thanks LST and Steve. Ancestry seems to particularly unreliabe with MIC - I only got the card on my 2nd attempt and there are three other relatives whose cards I cannot find although I have no trouble in seeing that Kew has them. Steve are you sure of the date the regt arrived in Egypt as I found a Glamorgan Y regimental history that gave late 1915 for the 1st Batt going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveE Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 I wouldn't say I was 100% positive but everything I've seen suggests they were part of the 1/1st South Wales Mounted Brigade in the 1st Mounted Division from August 1914 to March 1916 when they left to go to to Egypt. The 1st Mounted Division stayed in the UK throughout. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 9 November , 2008 Share Posted 9 November , 2008 The official Order of Battle of Divisions for 1st Mounted Division (which did remain in the UK as stated) says that the 1/1 South Wales Mounted Brigade, including the Glamorgans, were in the UK in November 1915 and landed at Alexandria on 13-14 March 1916. Roert W.Gould's Locations of British Cavalry, Infantry and Machine Gun units 1914-1924 gives the Glamorgans' date as 15 March, but in any event that's roughly when they got there! LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 10 November , 2008 Share Posted 10 November , 2008 QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 9 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But the Kitchener volunteer finished with only 2 medals and the TF man 3 if the vagaries of war didn`t send the K man abroad in 1915. And they did resent it! About as much as the people who fought, shed blood and had comrades who died in 1914, but didn't qualify for the 1914 Star. Who said the world is fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
per ardua per mare per terram Posted 10 November , 2008 Share Posted 10 November , 2008 ... the Glamorgans, were in the UK in November 1915 and landed at Alexandria on 13-14 March 1916. In other words they did not "go overseas" in March 1916, but they did arrive in a designated theatre of war then. As none of the allies had perfected Star Trek transporter technology, people went overseas by ship, which meant that they were at sea for weeks or even months to get to Egypt; hence my highlighting a discrepancy. As mentioned in many threads by several learned contributors to the forum a MIC often only lists the units served in whilst in theatres of war and not necessarily those served in outside war zones. This MIC gives evidence that he was with the Glamorgan Yeomanry when he arrived in Egypt; it does no "prove" he was only in that unit, for that one needs (and centurion is fortunate to have in this case) other evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted 30 December , 2008 Share Posted 30 December , 2008 This is what I have on him in my Roll of Services of Officers of the Welsh Regt. 1914 - 1919: The Glamorgan & Pembroke Yeo was merged into a dismounted infantry Bn, 24th Bn Welsh Regt. Kirby,S.H: 24th (Pembroke & Glamorgan Yeomanry) Bn Welsh Regt: 2Lt. Sidney Hausell Kirby to be T/Lt., 11.5.16: Lt: 1.6.16: A/Capt.: 29.4.17: Capt.: 9.4.18: Appears as Welsh Regt. in AL for July 1917. Glamorgan Yeo. Att. 24th Bn WR. Address given in "Glamorgan Its Gentlemen & Yeomanry", as Station Road, Dinas Powis, Glam. He is listed in the Nominal Roll of the Officers of 24th Bn Welsh Regt. which notes that he embkd. 4.3.16. Adm. Egyptian Govt. Hosp. Muria (Dysentery) 14.5.16. Rejoined unit, 27.5.16. T/Lt. 11.5.16. 1st Class at Stokes Gun Course, Zeitoun, 23.3.17. A/Capt. whilst commanding Light Trench Mortar Battery, 2.6.17. Lt. 1.6.16. (L.G. 21.6.17.). Adm 66 Casualty Clearing Station 7.9.17. Discharged to Yeo. Base 30.10.17. Rejoined 231 TMB Palestine, 11.11.17. Relinquished A/Rank of Capt. on ceasing to command T.M.B. 8.9.17. A/Capt while commanding T.M.B. 1.11.17. Embkd Alex. 30.4.18. Disembkd Marseilles 7.5.18. Posted to 24th Bn. for pay etc. but employed with 231 T.M.B. Leave to U.K. 5.6.18. to 19.6.18. Rejoined ex leave 22.6.18. To England to report to War Office 12.9.18. The MIC indicates service as 2Lt. & Capt. Glamorgan Yeo., & Capt. 81st Brigade, R.F.A. BWM & VM (Capt.), TFWM (2Lt. Glam. Yeo.). First Theatre, Egypt, 4.3.16. Address: Trevelyn, Cardiff Rd, Dinas Powys. Best regards Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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