Northern Soul Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 Folks, Have a look at this one - I have identified his MIC too so he did exist (although there is no mention of his death on the MIC). It's a bit long winded but the essential facts are that he went missing in August 1916 and was formally declared dead in July 1917. No mention in Overseas Deaths/SDGW/CWGC etc. He is commemorated on a local war memorial in Barrow. PTE. J. CARR. Mrs. Carr, of 50, Crellin-street, Barrow, has received information from the front stating that her son, Pte. Joseph Charles Carr, of the 20th Lancashire Fusiliers, is missing. Pte. Carr was wounded some months ago, and was in hospital in France. As nothing was heard of him for some time, the Rev. J. R. Hopkins, wrote to the Captain of his regiment, and received the following reply:- 20th Lancashire Fusiliers, B.E.F., 8/9/11 Dear Sir,—Your letter of August 15th reached me when we were in the trenches. Since I received it our battalion has had a very warm time, and until this week it has been practically impossible for us to send any letters away. We were then in the hottest part of the line, and since coming out we have done nothing but move about, chiefly by marching, until we came to a new area, on reaching which we were immediately put in the line again. During this time, both while we were in the trenches and while we were on the move - and we never stayed more than one day in the same place - we could not send any letters, and that is why you have not heard from me before this. With regard to No. 22537 Pte. Carr, I am sorry to say that he is missing. Please do not take this to mean that he has been killed. The circumstances of his disappearance from my company are these. Our battalion was going up to the front line to relieve another regiment. When we were in a communication trench, well behind the front line, Pte. Carr fell out, probably owing to fatigue. It was expected that he would follow on in his own time, but he never turned up and since that time he has not been seen. I cannot possibly think that he has been killed, or even wounded, for, curiously enough, the Germans were not shelling at the time, and as we were going along the foot of a hill it was impossible for rifle bullets to come within a thousand yards of us. As a matter of fact, I fully expected to find when we came out of the line that Pte. Carr had got mixed up with some other company, but on making inquiries I discovered that he was not with the battalion at all. The only theory I can put forward is this: Pte. Carr fell out near a R.A.M.C. dressing station, and the R.A.M.C. may have taken him in, and finding that he was unwell, have sent him to hospital. At the same time, we have not been informed that this was done, and that makes it all the more strange. But to me it is inconceivable that he should have been lost, and if he had been he would have been found next morning in the daylight. I got our company right up to the front line without a single casualty - beyond the falling out of Pte. Carr - and that is why I cannot believe that he was hit, and, as I say, if he was, he would soon have been found, as the trench was in constant use. I am hoping, therefore, that we shall soon hear what has become of him. I deeply regret that this should have happened for he was a good and willing lad, and I hope that you will soon have tidings of him. If I hear anything I will let you know immediately.- Yours sincerely, WILFRED H. LOWE, Capt. O/c N Company. Pte. Carr is only 17 years of age, and went out to the front in February. Before joining the Army he worked in the Submarine Dock department at the Shipyard. -: Barrow Guardian, Saturday, September 23, 1916; page 2. PTE. J. B. CARR, BARROW. Mr. and Mrs. Price, of 50, Crellin-street, Barrow, have received notification from the Infantry Records Office, Preston, that no information having been received of their son, Pte. Joseph Carr, of the Lancashire Fusiliers, who has been missing since August 19th, 1916, they now presume he was killed in action on that date. They have also received a letter of sympathy from the King and Queen. -: Barrow Guardian, Saturday, July 14, 1917; page 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apwright Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 He has a Service Record on Ancestry! Deceased, assumed to be on or since 19/8/16 Beside this is written: Cancelled. Auth ?W.O. letter C.2 Cas 827074 d/22/7/19 Posted 17th Bn 4/4/19 Posted Details Bttn BEF 14/5/19 On the next page: Declared a Deserter 19/8/16 Arrested at Havre 5/11/18 Trial dispensed with. Auth AFA 46 d/16/6/19 Discharged 14/10/19 He hid out in France for 2 years?! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 6 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 November , 2008 He has a Service Record on Ancestry! Deceased, assumed to be on or since 19/8/16 Beside this is written: Cancelled. Auth ?W.O. letter C.2 Cas 827074 d/22/7/19 Posted 17th Bn 4/4/19 Posted Details Bttn BEF 14/5/19 On the next page: Declared a Deserter 19/8/16 Arrested at Havre 5/11/18 Trial dispensed with. Auth AFA 46 d/16/6/19 Discharged 14/10/19 He hid out in France for 2 years?! Adrian Correct Adrian! Rather deviously I posted it as bait..............and as a salutary example to those of us who are obsessive about getting men commemorated. I found his records a few days ago after just "having one last go" before I offered him up as a non-com. On the face of the newspaper evidence it it is fairly clear cut but I had noted that the letter sent by the officer sort of precluded him being killed in action and had pencilled in that he might have been a deserter. How he eluded capture for such a long period I would dearly like to know but I couldn't help thinking of the grief his family (mother and sisters) must have suffered at the time. No idea when they found out he hadn't died but his name did get added to a memorial (which is what kept throwing me). Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 Congratulations to Adrian for getting to the bottom of the matter in only 25 minutes. Thanks, too - because it means that I only wasted about 20 minutes trying to locate this "possible non-commemoration" for Northern Soul, who knew the answer to his own question all along. For me, a salutary example indeed. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 6 November , 2008 Share Posted 6 November , 2008 His name can be removed you know - there was one locally in my area that the village had removed from the war memorial Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 8 November , 2008 Share Posted 8 November , 2008 Andy Given Chris' comments I'm interested to know if you are going to take this further with the local authorities in Barrow re his name being on the memorial or are you going to quietly let Pte Carr remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 10 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 10 November , 2008 Andy Given Chris' comments I'm interested to know if you are going to take this further with the local authorities in Barrow re his name being on the memorial or are you going to quietly let Pte Carr remain. Just going to let it rest - as an interesting anachronism. His name is on a memorial in a church - I think it's one of those where the names were added chronologically rather than alphabetically. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 November , 2008 Share Posted 10 November , 2008 Just going to let it rest - as an interesting anachronism. His name is on a memorial in a church - I think it's one of those where the names were added chronologically rather than alphabetically. Andy. Out of interest which church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 11 November , 2008 Author Share Posted 11 November , 2008 St. Mark's (Barrow-in-Furness). Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick D Posted 11 November , 2008 Share Posted 11 November , 2008 Andy, Why did you ask a question to which you already knew the answer ? I don't understand. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 11 November , 2008 Share Posted 11 November , 2008 What does "trial dispensed with" indicate? Summarily punished or let off? Haven`t others been shot for deserting in August 1916 or thereabouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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