WW2 Tank strike on Menin Gate memorial.

[chrislock]

Have recently spoke to a WW2 tank crew vet, asked me if the top left corner of the Menin Gate looking from the Great Square, had been repaired. Brit shermans were driving out the Wermacht through Wipers in 44, German M.G crew on top of memorial pursuaded to leave immediately, the brits did,nt want to damage the memorial too much, so they used an A.P solid shot, to minimise damage. One Sherman troop had it,s troop H.Q in the last building closest to the Gate. The unit in question was the 13th Hussars. The tank crewman was trooper Jim Tabbrett.

[Aurel Sercu]

Of course it's not my intention to cast any doubt on this, but this damage is not mentioned in Dominiek Dendoovens book "Menin Gate & Last Post" (2001). Did a British unit drive a German M.G. crew from the Menin Gate ? What Dominiek wrote does not confirm this (maybe on the contrary ?) :

"Ypres was liberated on 6 September 1944 by the 1st Polish Armoured Division of General Maczek. [Nice to know that his name means ... 'poppy'. ] The Menin Gate was not damaged. By the evening the whole town was cleared, and also British troops arrived in Ypres." (p. 103 and 128)

Was there still a German M.G. crew when the British troops arrived ? No idea. Maybe unlikely ?

Of course the Menin Gate had been damaged in May 1940. Especially on the east side by German fire. (Still visible.) But also on the west (town) side : one of the right pillars, and the sarcophagus.

Next time I see Dominiek I'll ask him if he knows more.

Aurel

[chrislock]

Very interesting book! Will talk again with Jim, he is a very genuin bloke of 83, career soldier in India, Dunkirk, D Day and demob after war. Have seen his Squadron war report of the incident. This is from the Hussars magazine that gets sent to Jim every year as a veteran from the current Hussars. If Jim and the Hussars war diary state this, then it is possible that your man has not all the information available. The Hussars fought with the 3RD Royal Tank Regt and others on their way to the Ardennes through this area. I am a 3rd RTR ex trooper and my regimental history confirms this. Food for thought!

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Interesting!!! Exactly when did this happen ?

Jacky

[Bert Heyvaert]

I posted a picture of this damage on the Menin gate a few months ago. I think together with a picture of a damaged cemetery. It was in the 'the western front' part of this forum I think or under 'cemeteries and memorials', I'm not sure. The picture was taken by the late Norman Thomson and his father, who was a CWGC gardener before WW2 on returning to Ypres in 1945. He told me at the time it was caused by aircraft fire, but reading your story, it has to be caused by the tank incident.

I can not post it from her, but will try to post it next month when I'm back in Belgium for a few days.

regards,

Bert.

[Bert Heyvaert]

found it.

The pic showing the exact damage you're speaking about is under the topic title 'damaged monuments'. Posted by me on tuesday 10th of june 2003 under 'cemeteries and memorials'. You can find it using the search-engine on this site.

regards,

Bert.

[Terry Denham]

Here is the link to Bert's pic

http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?s...maged+monuments

[Paul Reed]

Nice story, but 3/RTR and 23rd Hussars (I suspect it was them that you meant by Hussars) did not fight at Ypres; they were in rest in the Poperinghe - Ypres area in November-December 1944 when the Battle of the Bulge broke and were immediately dispatched to the Ardennes. At the time they were training with the new Comet tanks, and had to ditch these and return to the old Shermans.

In September 1944, when the Poles liberated Ypres, these British units were heading north towards Ghent and Bruges, and the Leopoldsburg area.

The damage to the Menin Gate, as mentioned by Aurel and Bert, was caused by British troops in May 1940. There is a good book by 'Gun Buster' (?Return Via Dunkirk or one of the others by the same author). He recounts having visited the Gate as a boy with his father; in May 1940 he was on top of it using it as an OP. An RE officer had mined the moat bridge, and blew it as the Germans approached from the direction of Hell Fire Corner - the resulting explosion damaged the front, and other parts of the Gate.

[Jacky Platteeuw]

That was what my question was about.

Ieper was liberated by a 1st Polish Division, Polenlaan is named after it, because that is the way the Polish soldiers entered Ieper on the 6th September 1944. I have difficulties to believe that or British troops were in Ieper before that date or a German rearguard was actif after it. Interestingly the pre-war buglers of the Last Post Committee already sounded the Last Post in the afternoon and started their regular service in the evening. Seems difficult if there would have been still some Germans around.

Jacky

[chrislock]

This is good stuff, I can remember Jim saying that their gun barrels were shot out and had to re equip with Comets, ( As Paul correctly states) but because of the german advance, the shermans had to be brought back on train flat beds and re locate. He said B SQN had a HQ in the end building closest to the gate. This was at a later date probably. Jim is in hospital so I cant confirm any more details. Could a troop or sqn have been attached to the Poles, or could this contact have happened before the Poles arrived? Jim states that it was a B sqn tank that engaged the M.G. team, close to, or on the top left corner of the gate. He said it raised quite a conversation about the merits of engageing soft targets and infantry with hard shot! I certainly know about that, being an ex tank gunner myself! The fog of war eh! Several times I have read accounts in books, then speak to a soldier who was there and well, make your own mind up! Just listen to the genuin Dunkirk vets the other night! Few history book writers may have to have a rewrite! Glad to hear the gate is well and the forum is functioning well too! Chris.

[Paul Reed]

I would say to you Chris that oral history does have its limitations, and none of us should necissarily believe any veteran one way or another, simply because what they say does or doesn't agree with the printed word or record. I learnt this at first hand with WW1 veterans 20+ years ago, and am learning it now with WW2 vets like your Tankie. Memory does play tricks on people.

But, it is worth investigating; looking at your post I see you actually mention 13th Hussars; they were 13/18 Hussars in WW2 if memory serves me correct. I will have a look at their war diary next time I am at Kew.

It is unlikely in my opinion the Poles had many, if any, British units attached; although of course not impossible. However, they were a self-contained unit with their own infantry, transport and tank units, and so for a relatively easy target (compared to what they had been up against in Normandy) like Ypres, I would have said their commander would have seen it as a slight that they needed support for the job!

[Jacky Platteeuw]

Something pure practical.

In my opinion the worst place to make a stand should be on top of the Menin Gate because they wouldn't have had any escape route. The way to the top goes trough a service room with steps.

Jacky

[Aurel Sercu]

The pic showing the exact damage you're speaking about is under the topic title 'damaged monuments'.

Bert,

Maybe nothing but a slight misunderstanding... but by "the exact same damage", do you mean the damage caused in May 1940 or the damage caused in September 1944 (by the Sherman tank) ? The latter, as 'Chrislock' pointed out, was caused on the west side of the Menin Gate (facing the town centre). The photo you refer to in a previous thread, and for which Terry provided a link, is the east side.

Also this.

I contacted Dominiek Dendooven (author of Menin Gate & Last Post). He said : "I'm not saying that this is impossible, but I had never heard of it. And also :

1. Why would a German MG crew take a position there in Sept 1944 ? It was of no strategic importance : the bridge (east side of the Menin Gate) had been damaged and the Poles approached the town from the south and the north (the Menin Gate is the east side of town). Germans who would have taken a position on the Menin Gate would have been at risk of being surrounded.

2. (As Jacky pointed out to) The Last Post was already sounded again (unofficially) on the same evening (6 Sept 1944). It would have been unlikely if shortly before there had been fighting.

3. For the book I spoke to many people, and none mentioned the Sept 1944 incident. Among them someone who at the time lived (and still lives) two houses from the Menin Gate. The memoirs of the town major Brown (1944-45) does not mention the incident either. I went through all CWGC archives related to the Menin Gate and found no mention of it (contrary to the damage caused in May 1940).

So far Dominiek Dendooven.

Aurel

[chrislock]

Paul, that would be a super idea if you could look up the sqn,s war diary! Jim is not the type of guy to "go over the top". There must be some truth in his report. Jacky, the M.G could have been to the side of the gate, on the ramparts, not actualy on top, they would of been quite foolish to do this as you correctly say, but where could a gun crew run, apart from around the wall, their choice would of been limited! Perhaps the date is wrong. Paul, I have faith in your quest at Kew, I,m extremely interested now! Had a thought, he was in the BEF, prior to Dunkirk, he said they had a hiding at Monchy le Preux in a rearguard action, different tanks I accept, but could this be when their tanks came through or past Ypres. If so, maybe this is when it happened? I,m sure Jim is correct, but listening to all the other members input, I have my doubts also, please put us out of our misery Paul. The Sqn,s war record will reveal all! By the way Paul, am franticaly reading "walking the somme", the poet,s walk seems superb!Chris.

[Bert Heyvaert]

You're right Aurel!! I didn't take a close look at the photo. It is on the wrong side indeed.

I'm not sure, but didn't Quagebuur (I hope I got the spelling right on his name) write a book on the liberation of Westland? Maybe this might contain some more info on the exact units that liberated Ypres.

But as I remember it, the Polish came first, secured the place, and than other British units came in. I will ask Jimmy Fox in Paris about this as well, as his father was the responsible for the daily upkeep of the gate before and immediatly after the war.

cheers,

Bert.

[Aurel Sercu]

Bert,

Of course : Roger Quaghebeur & Roger V. Verbeke, "Ze zijn daar - The liberation of Ypres and the Westland in September 44". (In Dutch). Civilian testimonies and a detailed decription of the liberation itself by the Polish troops. Dozens of pages about Ypres itself and photos.

Again : no mention at all of the Menin Gate incident.

I attach a photo from this publication. A view from the market square toward the Menin Gate. The caption (translated) : "A column of Polish tanks leaving the Market square towards the Menin Gate. Date probably 7 September. The coast is clear. No more danger of shooting or skirmishing." (Personally I don't recognize these trucks as tanks.)

Unfortunately the Menin Gate is too far away to see any possible damage. Even my magnifying glass didn't help...

Aurel