Turkey digging in at Gallipoli... again

[The Plummed Goose]

In the end I have decided to say my bit as well, being the “nr 2 foreigner” on the spot. It will be short. I have known Bill & Serpil Sellars for 4 years now and have never seen anybody as passionate about the battlefields –and its conservation and development in a culturally and environmental sensitive way- as this couple. Bill does not shut up; he speaks his mind as a person, but also as a journalist. There is a thin line here: most people do not understand & know that Bill when talking about the battlefields he is not talking as a journalist but as a person, a passionate one. By speaking up, rather than making money, Bill is not only creating enemies -with nasty tactics as has been shown lately- but is also jeopardizing his livelihood: his working permit in Turkey as a journalist. Very courageous for somebody who knows in advance he is only going to get s**t thrown at him.

If the above is not true then indeed Bill Sellars is a poor historian, a terrible journalist BUT a brilliant actor. Personally I have no intention to invest any money in the “Billy goes to Hollywood” movie …

Wishing you all a happy newyear !!

[Eceabat]

Pals,

I hope you will indulge me for yet another long winded posting but I have been asked on this forum and another to respond to a series of claims and allegations attacking my credibility regarding my comments and stance on developments on the Gallipoli battlefields and feel obliged to do so.

Given the subject of this posting, I am afraid that little is going to be added in the way of new information concerning the recent developments at Fusilier Bluff or Second Ridge, and as such, many readers may well choose to skip this offering. Don’t blame you, I found it distasteful to write. However, as has been pointed out, I am often the source of the reports on these developments and if my credibility is suspect, so too are these reports. Thus I feel that I should respond in this public forum to defend the credibility of these reports.

As has been pointed out in other postings here, the Senate inquiry was looking into the developments in the coastal region of the Anzac sector, and into the road work conducted there between February and April 2005. Apart from references regarding the need to preserve the area of Second Ridge, this inquiry touched upon that region in a limited way.

I had thought to respond, almost line by line, to the extracts posted on the Axis History Forum site Dogan Sahin, a member of that forum and this, from the minority report by the two Liberal senators from the 2005 Senate inquiry. However, these extracts, and the comments by Dogan, were removed by the moderator of that site (not at my request I assure you), who said that, “… in questioning the honesty of an individual by selective quoting of an inquiry that is itself tainted with the input of certain politicians, cuts too close to the bone in my view as character assassination”.

Not having copied each and every one of the extracts from that posting, I will limit my self to a few general observations, rather than a detailed, and probably boring, response.

Based on these few extracts, Dogan states that my credibility is undermined, and my postings here are lies. By extension, I suppose he must feel the photos accompanying these postings showing the damage caused by the excavation work are fake. That is his opinion, and he is welcome to it.

While it was stated that these extracts came from the inquiry’s minority report, in the cause of objectivity it would have been nice to see equal coverage given to the findings of the majority report, my verbal and written submissions to the inquiry, as well as other sources, some of which the indefatigable More Majorum has dredged up. Frankly, they cover much of the issue.

Just a little bit of effort by Dogan could have also unearthed a swathe of comments about the work on Second Ridge by Turkish historians and researchers, far more vitriolic than anything I have said. Some of these I have posted earlier (post 28). Others by noted experts on the campaign, such as Yetkin Iscen, Selim Meric and Gursel Akinguc, have appeared in local and national media and, as a professional translator, I am sure Dogan could provide an accurate rendering in English.

In the name of objectivity, for the reports carried by Australian ABC radio and television on October 27, in which the story of the damage to Second Ridge was covered, requests were made to the two most senior Turkish officials on the peninsula for interviews. The director of the national park refused the request while the Kaymakam (regional governor) refused to take the calls from the ABC field producer, my wife Serpil. Ample opportunity was given at the time for the Turkish officials to have their say and they rejected it. As an aside, I should say that Serpil is the ABC’s official representative in Turkey and has been for more than eight years.

Ah yes, the Liberal’s claim that the whole 2005 story was a beat up on my part in order to earn money. I did indeed receive payment for two stories related to the 2005 road works from the Sydney-based paper the Daily Telegraph. I was also paid some money by the Australian Nine network. However, let us be clear about this. At no time did I request payment for any of this nor negotiate any fee with either of these media outlets. Concerning the Telegraph, payments were transferred into my account without me being notified (the paper had my account details as I had previously carried out assignments for it). As to the Nine network, having accompanied the television crew for two days on the battlefields in March 2005, showing them where road work had been conducted, where historical sites had been damaged and having been interviewed by the reporter Peter Harvey, I was given some money, which I was told was the standard fee. I initially refused this fee but was told it had already been budgeted for and, as I had incurred expenses to be with the crew, including two taxi fares out to the battlefields, which amounted to more than $60, I accepted this money. I stress I had no idea that any money would be paid in advance, nor was the subject ever raised in the two days I spent with the crew.

During the time of the debate over the 2005 road works, I produced more than ten articles and gave more than 60 interviews. Apart from the instances referred to above, I received no payment. In three cases at least I was asked what my fee was to be interviewed, to which I said there was none, refusing all payment when it was mentioned in advance.

My detractors should note that I offered to fly to Australia to personally attend the 2005 Senate inquiry, at my own cost. This offer was made to the inquiry before the hearings but was not accepted. I agreed to a proposal that I go to Istanbul, a trip I was prepared to pay for out of my own pocket, to give evidence via a video link but it was later decided by the inquiry to interview me by phone.

I can assure you that the money I received from the two media outlets referred to above would not have come close to paying the airfare to Australia. Indeed, the money would have got me to Dubai or thereabouts from Istanbul. If, as has been suggested, I was only raising the issue of the damage at Anzac Cove to “gain financial benefit as well as journalistic benefit” I did a damn poor job of it, especially for one who has made his living as a journalist and writer for more than 20 years.

As far as journalistic benefit goes, I rather stumbled there too. I know of at least two cases of senior journalists or editors being contacted by officials of the then Australian government and being asked not to have dealings with me or print articles by me. Since 2005, I have not had a single article published in the Australian media, something that created a small but notable hole in my income.

Moving forward three years, the only article I have written about the 2008 road works was printed in a Turkish paper, the English language Turkish Daily News, in response to an ill informed opinion piece by Turkey’s ambassador to Australia, which was also printed in that paper and the Sydney Morning Herald (The SMH did not respond to my request to have my reply to the ambassador’s article printed in its august pages, score one for Turkish press freedom and objectivity). And guess what, I wasn’t paid for that one, nor for the dozen or so interviews I gave to Australian or Turkish media regarding the recent works on the peninsula.

But let’s also be fair here for a moment. I am a journalist and writer, that is how I have made my living almost all my adult life. Am I to refuse all payments for writing about or commenting on an issue that is close to my heart, only being paid for stories I am indifferent to (having recently completed a 1000 word article on the construction sector in Brunei, I can assure you there are stories I am most definitely indifferent to)

Dogan, you seem mightily offended that I have not responded to e-mails you have sent in the past and that this somehow puts my credibility at doubt. I am not going to go into this in detail here, as this is a personal matter, rather than one that need take up space here in a discussion on the damage done to the battlefields. As such, I will e-mail you privately, though I will say that it is up to me who I chose to write to and offer assistance to and who I do not. Given that you now consider I lack credibility, am a liar and someone with little or no knowledge of history, it is probably a good thing I did not provide you with the assistance you sought.

Now, as to how the historic battlefields of the Gallipoli peninsula should be managed.

There is a plan for the development and management of the historic sites of the Gallipoli peninsula, originally developed by the late and much lamented Professor Raci Bardemli and a group of experts. This plan incorporated the results of an international “concept” competition, held in 1998, in which Turkey called for submissions from local and foreign architects and planners for historically and environmentally sensitive proposals to develop the region and improve tourist access and facilities while having the minimum impact on the fabric of the terrain.

Among the principles laid down in the master plan were that all large buses would be banned from the battlefield area, with parking spaces to be provided at certain points at the edge of the national park and visitors transferred to minibuses. In this way, according to the plan, there would be no need for extensive new road works that could damage the historic landscape. (We’ve seen how well that one worked)

The plan also set out clearly the requirement that any construction work to be carried out should not, in any way, damage any trenches or sites dating from 1915, and that no developments whatsoever should be conducted at coastal areas used by the Allies during the landings of April or August. (I would direct visitors to the peninsula to the tourist complex, café and souvenir centre constructed at S Beach on Morto Bay in the Helles sector as well as to Bombasirti, Turkish Quinns on Second Ridge, now covered by a car park)

The plan required that, before any construction work was commenced, that a thorough study be carried out of the site by experts to determine whether the work would have any detrimental impact on the history of the area concerned. An example of how well this system is working is that, in early 2005, after initial excavation work had begun for the road widening at Anzac Cove, two historians were asked to accompany a state archaeologist to the site after reports human remains were uncovered. In a 15 minute visit, the experts said in their report that, in the limited time they had, they had not seen any human remains. However, their report also said that the work was damaging historically significant sites and should be halted immediately. Their report was ignored. My source for this was the two experts concerned.

I included the comments of one of those experts, Sahin Aldogan, who is know to some of you, in one of my written submissions to the inquiry, I repeat it here below in full.

“The studies that are conducted here are not according to international standards for battlefield archaeology,” Mr Aldogan said in an interview with me in early March. “Our main concern is that the battlefields are as little effected by the ongoing work as possible. This has not happened.”

Under the master plan, the national park authorities is to take advice from a committee of experts, including historians, who are to assess each proposed project and provide advice on whether it will cause damage to the historic fabric of the battlefields. In the case of the excavations on either side of the road along Second Ridge, this committee was not consulted and had no knowledge of the work.

Projects also have to be ratified by the provincial culture and heritage council before they can be implemented. In the case of the excavations on either side of the road along Second Ridge, this was not done.

The plan did include the construction of a new Turkish memorial in the Fusilier Bluff area. This was to be between 1000 to 2000 square metres at most. However, senior Turkish officials currently in positions of authority deemed this not monumental enough, and so its size was increased to the present 10,000 square metres.

Dogan also wrote that, “but in any case a group made up of historians, arhaelogists (sic), engineers etc. could have been formed and a formal report/suggestion could have been submitted,”.

Funny he should say that. In 2005, following the road work at Anzac Cove, it was agreed to establish a joint committee of Turkish and Australian historians, archaeologists and geographic experts to conduct a full survey of the battlefields in the Anzac sector. This was a proposal from Turkey and one that I fully applauded at the time and still support. Australia named its members to this committee in late 2005 or early 2006. Turkey has yet to finalise its delegates and to date no progress has been made in conducting this survey.

It was also agreed that no construction work or excavations would be carried out in the Anzac sector till such time as this committee tabled its findings. As we have seen, this has not been the case.

Indeed, as Dogan has written, it is easy to criticize. This is especially the case if there is much to be critical of. However, to say that I have never made any comment on how the battlefields should be better managed is ridiculous. In my evidence to the senate inquiry, in my writings and interviews and on this forum I have called for careful and sustainable development of the region with a minimal impact on the historic terrain. Most of all, I have supported and continue to support the principles of the original master plan, the agreed to but stalled joint historical and archaeological survey of the Anzac sector, suggest that such a survey be extended to include the other sectors of the battlefields and that all work be conducted in an manner sensitive to the environment and the topography.

I apologise to those readers who have had the patience to wade through all of this. I apologise as well if all this sounds too self justifying and self righteous. However, over the years I have become sick to my back teeth of attacks by an ill informed few who, without taking the trouble to properly research this issue, or who have private agendas of their own, seek to focus their enmity against my wife and myself, ignoring the fact that the comments we have made, the views that we hold, are shared by many here in Turkey as well as abroad.

The concerns of that many are to preserve the heritage of the Gallipoli battlefields, preserve the memory of those who served and died here and help, in some small way, preserve the legacy that has been handed down to us. It is a shame that there are not more people who share those concerns.

Bill Sellars

[Jeff Pickerd]

Bill,

I would maintain there is nothing to be apologetic for, on the contrary, I applaud your continued efforts to have both the Turkish and Australian Governments live up to the commitments they have proposed in regard to the protection and preservation of the Gallipoli battlefields.

All of you in Turkey who have put their reputations, livelihood's, and in some cases, person liberty, at risk by drawing attention to the failures of authorities to uphold stated and implied obligations to the agreements reached by both the Australian and Turkish Governments, are to be highly commended, respected and admired for that determination and courage shown to preserving our joint history.

I would also like to note that the accusation of “gain financial benefit as well as journalistic benefit”, as raised by Senator in the inquiry, was nothing more than mischievous and unsubstantiated spin wheeled out in an attempt to denigrate the credibility of Mr Sellars.

This was pure nonsense, if Mr Sellars is a working professional journalist, does not payment for work undertaken follow? The same argument could made to the Senators receiving their parliamentary salaries for sitting on the inquiry!

As it turns out, Mr Sellars received but a fraction of what could be considered adequate payment for professional services. What he did receive, has been attempts to discredit his professionalism, reputation and livelihood. So I suppose that lovely new shiny black Mercedes and the waterfront apartment will have to be put on hold for a little while longer.

Quite frankly, I fail to see what other outcome to the question raised by Mr Sahin could be achieved, than the facts of the matter being revealed, and as such, the failings to conduct projects at these historic sites being undertaken in the true spirit of the set out conditions and agreements by all parties, being brought to the fore.

I am constantly amazed at the mindset of politicians and beurocrates in making such decisions, thinking that none will notice, nor raise objection, when Blind Ned can see that the average man in the street will soon be onto it and is going to give them a good kicking.

Bill, I thank you for again taking the time to put forward your side of the story, and your opinions as to what should be done.

Jeff

[Dogan Sahin]

Pals,

"....As has been pointed out in other postings here, the Senate inquiry was looking into the developments in the coastal region of the Anzac sector, and into the road work conducted there between February and April 2005. Apart from references regarding the need to preserve the area of Second Ridge, this inquiry touched upon that region in a limited way...."

Bill,

Nowhere in my postings you will find any personal character assasination attempt. I only cut-copied parts of a 120 page report on your allegations, which we all believed and supported here in this site (and I still say you have a great ground for your claims- as long as you feel you are right Bill the wrong will be damned). I can assure the reader there are worse comments on your standing in the subject matter report than I have cut-copied!

As I said before, such parts that I have pasted were the parts that attracted my attention the most, especially about the financial gain (and they were not my conclusions). Why do you get offended by a report prepared by a section of Australian government? After all, they have interwieved you and offered their opinion..Why get so apologetic? I have been earning my living from writing for the last 22 years and I am proud of what I write, and earn.

You say "Dogan states that my credibility is undermined, and my postings here are lies. ..While it was stated that these extracts came from the inquiry's minority report, in the cause of objectivity it would have been nice to see equal coverage given to the findings of the majority report, Just a little bit of effort by Dogan could have also unearthed a swathe of comments about the work on Second Ridge by Turkish historians and researchers, far more vitriolic than anything I have said. Some of these I have posted earlier (post 28). Others by noted experts on the campaign, such as Yetkin Iscen, Selim Meric and Gursel Akinguc, have appeared in local and national media and, as a professional translator, I am sure Dogan could provide an accurate rendering in English. "

Well Mr. Sellars, it is not my duty to report on investigations about you. You needed to have done it yourself, as far as I am concerned. And I did not say you are a liar..Australian Senate Minority Committee did.

Now that you confess that you chose to disregard my curiosity, I have to say you accept that "Ah yes, the Liberal's claim that the whole 2005 story was a beat up on my part in order to earn money. I did indeed receive payment for two stories related to the 2005 road works from the Sydney-based paper the Daily Telegraph. ...." So I see you did in fact get paid, whether enough or not!." and please Mr. Sellars, I am not the tax man..You need not convince me about your earnings.!

Mr. Sellars, you say " Dogan, you seem mightily offended that I have not responded to e-mails you have sent in the past and that this somehow puts my credibility at doubt. I am not going to go into this in detail here, as this is a personal matter, rather than one that need take up space here in a discussion on the damage done to the battlefields. As such, I will e-mail you privately, though I will say that it is up to me who I chose to write to and offer assistance to and who I do not. Given that you now consider I lack credibility, am a liar and someone with little or no knowledge of history, it is probably a good thing I did not provide you with the assistance you sought."

Well , to this comment Mr. Sellars I will repeat the well known saying "Information you dont share is doomed to be lost!" I have nothing against you, I have never read any substantial work written by you,

I do not know you, although I must admit I would have liked to have met you before all this happened.

You mention such names as Sahin Aldogan, yetkin ıscen, Guner etc..

Mr. sellars, I dont know what sahin or yetkin or Guner bey does for a living, I have never met them, nor were they mentioned within the circles I am affilieted to. Nor were they able to reach me; the amateur, and a member of the public. So I am sorry, I cannot comment.But in any case, we should let them speak for themselves..

Indeed I never got offended for you not replying to my emails Mr. Sellars, I am used to the fact that those who feel have attained some type of standing lack the empathy to the up and coming amateurs.

I think your confessions speak for itself. You did not at any time provide the reader with full goings on but chose to dispense what you felt was enough for the observer.

As to Axis forum;

You Say "..I had thought to respond, almost line by line, to the extracts posted on the Axis History Forum site Dogan Sahin, a member of that forum and this, from the minority report by the two Liberal senators from the 2005 Senate inquiry. However, these extracts, and the comments by Dogan, were removed by the moderator of that site (not at my request I assure you), who said that, "… in questioning the honesty of an individual by selective quoting of an inquiry that is itself tainted with the input of certain politicians, cuts too close to the bone in my view as character assassination".

You should have replied Mr. Sellars, infact insisted to do so . To me , they are simply another example of Democles! But nothing else.

I didnot make any more comments at axis forum than I have made here!, on the contrary, my post was, as you said, deleted before anyone could ask questions. I just pasted the same post you see here on to axis forum! so I dont know what comments you would have been answering "line by line". But yes, they like you mr. sellars.

However, I would ask you to please answer the reports of Australian senators " line by line"...Full 120 page.., if you care to do so and you have the Turkish government report to answer and please do show the courtesy to post the majority report for us to compare and be informed...And you owe the reader that rather than diverting the subject to Dogan sahin's acts! Beating dogan sahin here will not clear you of accusations made by respected senators of part of ozzie people..

You added " Dogan also wrote that, "but in any case a group made up of historians, arhaelogists (sic), engineers etc. could have been formed and a formal report/suggestion could have been submitted,".Indeed, as Dogan has written, it is easy to criticize. This is especially the case if there is much to be critical of. However, to say that I have never made any comment on how the battlefields should be better managed is ridiculous. "

"

I did not at any time say "Bill sellars" did not comment. I said " A proper plan-project needs to be submitted, through media or otherwise"..They are totally different statements Mr. Sellars.

So Mr. Sellars, do not try to discredit Dogan for being curious, this Dogan may go but there will be others. I should advise you to prepare yourself for their queries.

Regards

[Guest]

As an 'Aussie' person, I find that Bill Sellars has more than adequately answered your post, and that it up to you to do your own research, Bill has done his thoroughly.

You show your ignorance in your statement, " I have never read any substantial work written by you, ", so if you have not read all Bill's articles, and interviews, how can you have a balanced view?

You prefer to believe politicians pursuing party lines?

Shows you do not understand Aussie politics, nor Aussie people.

Me thinks there is more afoot here than the innocence you claim.

I concur with More Majorum, in that some Turkish people have risked, and are still risking a lot, to let the world know what goes on at Gallipoli.

Kim

[Jeff Pickerd]

Dogan,

In your above reply to Mr Sellars you state: -

(Quote) "I didnot make any more comments at axis forum than I have made here!, on the contrary, my post was, as you said, deleted before anyone could ask questions. I just pasted the same post you see here on to axis forum! so I dont know what comments you would have been answering "line by line". But yes, they like you mr. sellars."

Yes I would totally agree that that was the case, and Mr Sellars reference to replying to Axis forum post by you may give the impression that there may have been some difference to that post.

You further state: -

(Quote) "However, I would ask you to please answer the reports of Australian senators " line by line"...Full 120 page.., if you care to do so and you have the Turkish government report to answer and please do show the courtesy to post the majority report for us to compare and be informed...And you owe the reader that rather than diverting the subject to Dogan sahin's acts! Beating dogan sahin here will not clear you of accusations made by respected senators of part of ozzie people.. "

I would take it that you were being somewhat flippant with this request, and to save you, Mr Sellars, and any other interested party, the time and effort to write and read a commentary of the 120 page report, I attach the link to the Australian Senate report.

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fap...eport/index.htm

Here can be found the entire results of the, "Australian Senate Finance and Public Administration Reference Committee: Inquiry into matters relating to Gallipoli Peninsula."

Any other comment is for Mr Sellars to respond to, if he should so desire.

Jeff

[Dogan Sahin]

Kim said " As an 'Aussie' person, I find that Bill Sellars has more than adequately answered your post, and that it up to you to do your own research, Bill has done his thoroughly.

You show your ignorance in your statement, " I have never read any substantial work written by you, ", so if you have not read all Bill's articles, and interviews, how can you have a balanced view?..."

Kim that is precisely what I was getting at; I did do my work in trying to contact Mr. sellars on numerous occasions, to no avail. he did in fact accept that he chose not to assist me..So thats that and he is entitled to do just that and I am entitled to my opinion. I am called ignorant simply because I did not read any "books " or "articles" written by Mr. sellars elswhere. That is a bit of exxagaration I guess. In addition, I would appreciate it if you could reply as " an interested" party rahter than " as aussie" for that takes the discussion to a different course, which I am sure many wont like.

"...You prefer to believe politicians pursuing party lines? .."

Well, you would be doing just that by believing the majority report? wouldnt you.

Yes, I do at times find it difficult to understand ozzie people, same would go for you in regards to understanding Turkish thinking I guess.

"Me thinks there is more afoot here than the innocence you claim." Well, you can think all you like. I know myself. I find it amazing that such a simple request to one member to expand on his claims (disputed by some) became an issue of " whether Dogan is trying to discredit Mr. sellars for some reason".

Ah, by the way, Axis forum wrote to me and said that "It was a joint moderating decision to remove your post on Sellars.The "character assassination" refers to that done by certain politicians and not yourself." and they have done it because Mr. sellars is involved in a criminal case and they did not want to be involved. So that settles the twisting of facts regarding my comment at that forum.

"..I concur with More Majorum, in that some Turkish people have risked, and are still risking a lot, to let the world know what goes on at Gallipoli..."

For gods sake, there is nothing heroic about that.Of course they should, it is a public duty. There is an influx of visitors, nature causes damage and something should be done. I am yet to see a proper, full proposal of " what must be done at gallipoli" prepared by the "world"...And they certainly do not provide sufficient financing.

Dogan,

In your above reply to Mr Sellars you state: -

(Quote) "..Yes I would totally agree that that was the case, and Mr Sellars reference to replying to Axis forum post by you may give the impression that there may have been some difference to that post.."

Axis clarified that with their above given quote.

"...I would take it that you were being somewhat flippant with this request, and to save you, Mr Sellars, and any other interested party, the time and effort to write and read a commentary of the 120 page report, I attach the link to the Australian Senate report...."

Thanks for providing the link for those interested. But, I meant the majority report and I cannot find it..

Finally, nowehere in my posts have I stated anything about Mr. Sellars professional standing, knowledge and passion, expertise about history etc. I do read his comments in the forums with great interest and do benefit from them. I can testify to that at any time, anywhere.

regards

[Dogan Sahin]

Jeff,

yes there is quite a lot there. I think Ill find what I need.

[Eceabat]

Dear all,

Jeff wrote that "Any other comment is for Mr Sellars to respond to, if he should so desire"

Frankly, Mr Sellars does not desire because Mr Sellars can't be bothered and Mr Sellars has better things to do.

I leave it to the forum members to make up their own minds whether or not my credibility is intact, whether what I have said is "a bunch of lies", whether or not the selective posting of material, described as "character assassination", constituted a personal attack against me.

Mr Sellars feels that Mr Sellars has been open and honest at all times, has not tried to hide the fact that some political motivated reports by members of a government now out of office did not agree with him over events of three ad a half years ago, and has, in the pages of this forum and elsewhere stated his position clearly and responded to the allegations against him. Of course some may not agree with Mr Sellars and that is their right.

For himself, Mr Sellars intends to confine his postings on this thread to the topic at hand, that being the recent developments at Fusilier Bluff and Second Ridge, with the possible occasional foray into the Turkish legal process as experienced by the people who have publicly spoken out over the aforesaid developments.

Cheers

Mr Sellars

[Dogan Sahin]

Dear all,

"Jeff wrote that "Any other comment is for Mr Sellars to respond to, if he should so desire"

Frankly, Mr Sellars does not desire because Mr Sellars can't be bothered and Mr Sellars has better things to do.

I leave it to the forum members to make up their own minds whether or not my credibility is intact, whether what I have said is "a bunch of lies", whether or not the selective posting of material, described as "character assassination", constituted a personal attack against me. ...."

Well thank you Mr. Sellars.

That says it all; I guess Ipersonally will leave you to do your better things..

And the "character assasination" comment at another forum, as I said in my previous post, was not directed against me and has been deleted from the post by the forum moderators following it being twisted and used at this forum....

So long and good luck in your endevours.

I apologise to all those whom I may have taken valuable time of, due to my curiosity.

Regards

[Guest]

Your comment.

"respected senators of part of ozzie people.. "

Would you prefer the senator to reply? I wish you luck.

"Public duty,"

When there is the risk of imprisonment for telling the truth? No wonder many Turkish people keep quiet.

"" as aussie" for that takes the discussion to a different course, which I am sure many wont like."

I will reply as an 'Aussie' because that is what I am. I am not about to reply as a Chinese or an American, am I?

It is because I am an Aussie, that I can speak freely. So, who are 'the many' that won't like???

"Finally, nowehere in my posts have I stated anything about Mr. Sellars professional standing, knowledge and passion, expertise about history etc."

You may not have stated, but your postings certainly have a ring to them.

"same would go for you in regards to understanding Turkish thinking "

My daughter is engaged to a Turkish man. I often spend time with his wonderful family, and have learnt much of their culture, as well as having Turkish friends OS. So, you see, I am not totally ignorant of Turkish 'thinking.'

Having answered you, I agree with Bill that this thread should get back on track.

Cheers

Kim

[Dogan Sahin]

Your comment.

"Public duty,"

"When there is the risk of imprisonment for telling the truth? No wonder many Turkish people keep quiet."

Looking at your rhetorical question and your own answer to the same ; This is what I mean by saying " answer as a contributor" otherwise the next thing I am afraid you will begin furiously attacking Turkish system!! Do I sound like a person who keeps quiet? The above comment is a disrespectful course to take Kim, and could be considered as an insult by those people who do publish their comments and opinions on developments in Canakkale, and there are many; just that some of us know when to shut up and when to talk! and "Truth" is a relative concept. I dont care where you are from, you are just a contributor as far as I am concerned and I respect that, that only..

"... So, you see, I am not totally ignorant of Turkish 'thinking.'"

Good for you Kim. Likewise, I know a bit about Australians; I lived amongst them for 20 years, and I am one!.

[centurion]

This thread has become exceedingly tedious if not tendacious in places

[Krithia]

This thread has become exceedingly tedious if not tendacious in places

Yes totally agree. Back to the subject, has anyone visited the Fusilier Bluff area recently and can post any photos to indicate the extent of works in that area?

[Eceabat]

Can't agree more with the above.

I have recent shots of the Fusilier Bluff developments but my photoshop program has gone awol so I can't downsize them so I can upload them (I think I got the techno babble right). Sorry for the delay.

I promise to post the pics by tomorrow evening, really I will.

Cheers

Bill

[michaeldr]

quote: has anyone visited the Fusilier Bluff area recently and can post any photos to indicate the extent of works in that area?

The photographs to which I referred in my post number 83 above

were taken by Mr ABDULLAH AYER and they remain his copyright,

however our mutual friend has assured me that he has "obtained his consent for them be passed to third parties or published"

With that caveat, here are Mr Ayer's pictures of the recent developments at the NURI YAMUT MEMORIAL

[michaeldr]

Images 4-6

[michaeldr]

images 7-9

[michaeldr]

the last of Mr Ayer's photographs of the recent work at the NURI YAMUT MEMORIAL

[Eceabat]

Thanks for that Michael,

that saves me having to post shots I have of the Nuri Yamut area. I will confine myself to the new larger memorial to the south and shots from inside Gully Ravine itself (photoshop willing).

As you can see, there was no new car park development at Nuri Yamut as has been suggested. Like I said in an earlier posting, there were no trenches remaining in the area covered by this particular work, though relics from the campaign were dug up as were human remains, and part of at least one of the old mine craters partly filled in.

Cheers

Bill

[michaeldr]

quote: that saves me having to post shots I have of the Nuri Yamut area. I will confine myself to the new larger memorial to the south and shots from inside Gully Ravine itself (photoshop willing).

Glad to hear from you again Bill

and hope to see your photographs soon

best regards

Michael

[ShirlD]

Michael,

Thank you for posting Mr. Ayer's photos. Your ears might have been burning yesterday, as Peter Bennett was having a cuppa at our place, and we talked about your help as I showed him the photo you took for me of the grave of Trooper Viveash in Haifa War Cemetery.

Bill,

I look forward to your photos and wish you and Serpil a safe, happy 2009.

A time of reflection and to say once more 'long live the Forum' and a toast to all the people who so willingly give time, share information, engage in robust debate, in the memory of those who served and died, those who were wounded, those who survived, and all their families.

We will remember them.

Cheers

Shirley

[michaeldr]

Shirley,

re burning ears - funny you should mention that!

very best wishes for 2009, both to your good self and to Peter

also, for Bill, may I second the "wish you and Serpil a safe, happy 2009."

regards

Michael

[Dogan Sahin]

Hi,

Today's News on work being carried out on the road between Kabatepe and Alçıtepe by a construction company; loaders and all..Pictures as well.

http://haber.gazetevatan.com/haberdetay.as...mp;Categoryid=1

http://www18.gazetevatan.com/fotogaleri/re...p;page_number=1

[bluedog]

Dogan

Thanks for the photos and the update

Peter