manchester regiment

[gem22]

Could someone please satisfy my curiosity?

When did the cap badge of the Manchester Regiment change to a Fleur-de-Lys and why?

Garth

[findabetterole]

When did the cap badge of the Manchester Regiment change to a Fleur-de-Lys and why?

Garth

Hello Gareth,

I've been out of British Armed Forces cap badge collecting for some years now, but I do know the Manchesters change the design post WW1. The Fleur-de-Lys was originally the badge of the old '63rd' regiment (formed in 1744 as: the 63rd (American) Foot). Both the 63rd & 96th (formed in 1760 as: 96th Foot) were amalgamated in 1881 as part of the then Cardwell reforms, to form the new regiment = The Manchester Regiment.

I'm confident that more knowledgeable forum members than I, will be able to expand upon the above.

Seph

[gem22]

Seph

Thanks for that. At least now I know where the Fleur de Lys came from.

Garth

[HarryBettsMCDCM]

IIRC a TF Battalion of the Manchester Regt wore an elaborate Fleur de Lys Badge from 1908,the Plain Fleur de Lys for the Regiment being adopted between the wars {1920s} to replace the "Tram Conductors" Badge

[daggers]

I have a tram conductor's badge which is remarkably like the old Manchesters' insignia, being the city's old coat of arms.

D

[themonsstar]

The Manchester Regt was raised 20th Sept 1756 (WO26/23) as the 2nd Bn of the 8th of Foot or Kings(Liverpool) Regiment. 21st April 1758 it was formed into a separate Regt becoming the 63rd of Foot.

During the later part of the 18th century the 63rd of Foot was frequently in direct conflict with the French this may have led to the Regt adopting the fleur-de-lis device as a badge, after the capture of Guadeloupe in 1759 as a reward. However it was not officially worn as a Cap badge until 1923.

On 1st Sept 1958 the Manchester Regt linked with the Kings(Liverpool) Regt to form the 1st Bn The Kings Regt (Manchester & Liverpool) 200 years after making the first split.

[gem22]

Thanks for the replies so far but I am still left wondering why the change was made.

I can understand a change of cap badge when two regiments amalgamate but why was it changed in 1923?

Garth

[angelab]

Ah, that would explain the reference to the Fleur-de-Lys in the following extract from "The Seventh Manchesters, July 1916 to March 1919" by Captain S. J. Wilson, M.C. (1920), that I came across while looking for info on my grandfather and his brothers:

"Many gallant deeds were performed by runners, stretcher-bearers and ammunition-carrying platoons through this inferno. Lieut. Bagshaw was awarded the M.C. for his work in leading ammunition fatigues, but the supreme decoration of all--the seal of death--came to a large number of the Fleur-de-lys. Amongst the officers--Capt. Tinker, Lieut. Walter Thorp and Lieut. Ludlam were killed outright, while Lieuts. Woods and McLaine were mortally wounded. "

Angela

[themonsstar]

FLEUR DE LYS

COPY OF APPLICATION FROM THE OFFICER COMMANDING Ist BATTALION ON BEHALF OF ALL BATTALIONS THE MANCHESTER REGIMENT.

No. I08/E/2I0/2.

2/11/1922.

From : The Officer Commanding, 1st Battalion The Manchester Regiment.

To : Headquarters, 24th (P) Infantry Brigade, Dublin.

DUBLIN,

SIR, 2nd November, 1922.

I have the honour to re-submit a request that application may be made to the Army Council for permission for The Manchester Regiment to use the Fleur de Lys as a Badge.

The application is forwarded by me on the authority and on behalf of the Colonel of the Regimaent, Major-General Sir Vere Fane, K.C.B., K.C.I.E., at present Commanding in Burmah.

A previews application was made in 1919 by the Colonel of the Regiment, supported by letters from the Officers Commanding both Regular Battalions, and was replied to by War Office Ietter No. 20/Infantry/1338 (Q.M.b.7) of 31st October 1919.

It is the unanimous wish of the Officers of both Regular Battalions of the Regiment that the Fleur de Lys should be authorised as one of the Badges of the Regiment.

Letters strongly approving of this application have been received from all the Honorary Colonels and Commanding Officers of the Militia and Territorial Battalions.

Further, a resolution of the Manchester City Council was unanimously adopted in August 1922, stating that the application was assented to by the City Council.

2. This request is not put forward on the grounds that the Fleur de Lys should be regarded in the light of a Battle Honour. It is forwarded for consideration on the

grounds of long usage, custom, and sentiment.

The arms of the City of Manchester as at present worn constitute a Badge of a non-military nature, and they are, moreover, worn at present by every worker in the employment of the City Corporation.

The Badge, therefore, as worn is by no means regarded by all ranks in the Regiment, who mainly come from Manchester, with those feelings which a Regimental Badge should inspire.

3. It is suggested that the Fleur de Lys should be worn as the Badge of the Regiment on the Headdress, and as the Collar Badge of the Service Dress Jacket of

Officers. The Badge of the 63d Foot would thus be retained and the Badge of the 96th Foot, The Sphinx, would remain on the Officers' buttons and the collar of the tunic; while the Territorial connection with the City of Manchester would be retained by the name of the Regiment.

4. A sample of the Fleur de Lys is enclosed.

I have the honour to be, Sir,

Your obedient Servant,

(Sgd.) F. H. DORLING,

Lt.-Colonel. Commanding 1st Battalion The Manchester Regiment.

COPY OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL

TOWN HALL, MANCHESTER,

3rd August, 1922.

SIR,

At the meeting of the City Council held on the 2nd instant I was requested to communicate to you the following resolution, which was unanimously adopted :

FLEUR DE LYS RESOLVED :

That inasmuch as it is represented to this Council that it is the desire of the Regular and Territorial Commanding Officers of The Manchester Regiment that the Officers and Men of such Regiment shall wear the Fleur de Lys as a Regimental Badge, and that an application in that behalf has or is about to be made to the War Office for authority so to do, and inasmuch as it is represented that if such authority be given, the word " Manchester " will appear on the shoulder straps of all ranks, and upon the buttons of the Officers' tunics, thereby further preserving the connection and association of the City with the Regiment, this Council in so far as it is concerned in such application assents thereto.

I shall be glad if you will submit this resolution to the Army Council.

I am, Sir,

Your obedient servant,

(Sgd.) P. M. HEATH,

Town Clerk.

The Secretary, War Office, London.

COPY OF WAR OFFICE LETTER SANCTIONING RESTORATION OF THE " FLEUR DE LYS " BADGE OF THE 63RD FOOT TO THE MANCHESTER REGIMENT.

WAR OFFICE, LONDON, S.W.I.

3st January, 1923. 20/Infantry/1570 (Q.M.G. 7).

SIR,

With reference to the attached copy of application of the Officer Commanding 1st Bn. The Manchester Regiment, I am commanded by the Army Council to inform you that approval is given for the Manchester Regiment to use the " Fleur de Lys " as a Clothing Badge in place of " The Arms of the City of Manchester."

The proposal that the " Fleur de Lys " should be worn as the headdress Badge for all ranks and as the Collar Badge on the Service Dress Jacket of Officers is sanctioned, on the understanding that no expense to the Public is thereby involved and that provision of the new cap badge for other ranks will not be proceeded with until stocks of the present pattern badge are exhausted.

I am to ask that a report may be furnished whether the enclosed sample " Fleur de Lys " (which was forwarded with the application of the 1st Battalion Manchester Regiment) is of the required design and size for the Service Dress Jackets of Officers, and that a sketch showing the exact dimensions of the cap badge may be forwarded to this Office in order that sealed patterns of the badges may be prepared. The enclosed sample badge should be returned with your reply.

I am to add that copies of this letter are being sent to the Colonel of The Manchester Regiment (Major-General Sir V. B. Fane, K.C.B., K.C.I.E.) ; to the Officers Commanding the 2nd Battalion and Depot of The Manchester Regiment, and to the Secretary, East Lancashire Territorial Force Association.

I am, Sir,

Your Obedient Servant,

(Sgd.) B. B. CUBBITT.

[gem22]

themonsstar

What else can I say other than Thankyou. That answer is brilliant.

Cheers

Garth

[harribobs]

Ah, that would explain the reference to the Fleur-de-Lys in the following extract from "The Seventh Manchesters, July 1916 to March 1919" by Captain S. J. Wilson, M.C. (1920), that I came across while looking for info on my grandfather and his brothers:

"Many gallant deeds were performed by runners, stretcher-bearers and ammunition-carrying platoons through this inferno. Lieut. Bagshaw was awarded the M.C. for his work in leading ammunition fatigues, but the supreme decoration of all--the seal of death--came to a large number of the Fleur-de-lys. Amongst the officers--Capt. Tinker, Lieut. Walter Thorp and Lieut. Ludlam were killed outright, while Lieuts. Woods and McLaine were mortally wounded. "

Angela

angela

i'm sorry, i didn't know we hadn't explained this

the 7th battalion wore the floriated fleur de lys before the war and i think it was gradually phased out during the war and replaced by the COA badge

contact me me on t'other forum and we'll get one

cheers

chris

[harribobs]

to add colour ( well b&w) to roy's superb post

[Graeme Fisher]

One of the joys of this forum is the fact that every now and then, a member will cough up an absolute gem.

Having collected badges for many years, I knew of the Tram Conductor tag for the Manchesters' badge, and its later change to the fleur-de-lys, but never why.

And then one of our members provides THE definitive answer. The official one. No heresay or old wives' tale, but official documentation that puts it to bed.

Nice one, themonsstar, you've done us a great service.

[JulianB]

Brilliant - Mons, as someone very keen to study official documentation on badges could you please give the sources for your letters.

Chris, the WO took over the production and distribution of TF badges in late 1915. - the actual date is not known as there is a gap in the RACD ledgers. (They concentrated on cap badges and shoulder titles, if the unit wore or wanted to wear anything else they had to provide it themselves.)

Nevertheless, the WO reduced the number of badges that they were going to supply and a list of these was produced as PVCN 1915 though it does not appear to have been published until it was attached to AO 1st Aug 1916 (probably to coincide with the large orders / tenders goping through). At the bottom of the first page is a note "Units not included in the list of special badges for the Territorial Force wear the badge authorized [sic] for their Regular regiments or corps."

The 7th Manchesters are absent from the list !

Julian