Linking Cause of Death to War Service

[chrisharley9]

Neil

not gassed as he never left this country - looks like constant exposure to wet conditions whilst in training

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Chris,

Don't forget Doc2's kind offer to be our medical (illnesses and Diseases) consultant. Hopefully we can from now on make an informed judgement whether or not a particular listed cause of death can possibly be put down to war service. I'm particulary interested in this possibility of infection causing heart problems thing. It would explain a lot.

Here is one of my REJECTIONS. His name appears on these civic war memorials and he was given the honour of a FULL military funeral with a 2/5th Buffs guard of honour AND a bloody Trumpeter (but this didn't impress the Naval Historical Branch)! -

1. Ashford Town

2. Ashford Railway Works Roll of Honour

3.Dover Marine (SE&CR) Railway Memorial in Dover

Able Seaman 202829 Herbert Frederick HOSKINS. HMS “Royal Arthur”. Royal Fleet Reserve (R.F.R). Died 20th January 1915 aged 31 years. Died at 23 Christchurch Road, Ashford, Kent. The given cause of death on the death certificate was Valvular Disease of the Heart. Husband of Mabel H Hoskins (nee Pilbeam) of Ashford, Kent. Brother of Caroline May Wilkins of 23 Christchurch Road, Ashford, Kent. Herbert normally resided at 66 Lower Denmark Road, Ashford, Kent. Buried locally 23rd January 1915 in the Ashford Cemetery, Canterbury Road, Ashford. Grave reference - 7004.

There is a Mabel Harriet Pilbeam buried in the same burial plot. Mabel was buried here on 2nd February 1966 aged 79 years.

Herbert joined the Royal Navy in 1899 for 12 years service. He served on the following ships during this period – St Vincent (1899), Argincourt (1900), Galatea (1900), Empress of India (1900/01), Caesar (1901/02), Wildfire (1903/04), Northampton (1904), Hawke (1904/05). He was posted to HMS Royal Arthur on the 2nd August 1914 and remained with this ship until 26th November 1914. On the 27th November 1914 he returned to HMS Pembroke in Chatham and was subsequently invalided on 21st December 1914.

The local papers reported his death as follows “Saturday of Herbert Frederick HOSKINS, Royal Navy, the licensee of the Wheatsheaf Public House, Denmark Road, South Ashford who passed away on the previous Wednesday aged 31 years. The deceased who leaves a widow and a baby girl had served 12 years in the navy, and upon the outbreak of war re-joined serving on HMS Royal Arthur and on one of the naval trawlers. He was invalided home in December, and died from valvular disease of the heart. His coffin was covered with the union flag and following the mourners was the funeral party in khaki uniforms of members of the 5th Buffs (East Kent Regiment) under Private Cowell who was wearing the Chitral ribbon. At the conclusion of the impressive service, Trumpeters Wells and Wilkinson of 458th Battery, Royal Field Artillery sounded the last post”.

Death Certificate reference – West Ashford/ASH28/171.

Before the outbreak of war Herbert was the Licensee of the Wheatsheaf Public House, Lower Denmark Road, Ashford. He had only just left the navy after completing his engagement. Herbert’s death certificate states that he was a sailor.

The Ashford Absentee Voters List for 1918 gives –

51, Beaver Road, Ashford

Driver 234110 Frank HOSKINS. Royal Field Artillery (RFA).

The 1901 census gives –

23, Christchurch Road, Ashford

Charles HOSKINS 57 Labourer Baddeley, Hampshire

Mary 54 Bungay, Suffolk

Arthur 23 Carpenter Joiner Stepney, London

Catherine 21 Stepney, London

George 19 Hawker Stepney, London

Frank 12 Stepney, London

Herbert died only 1 month later of heart disease. His death was therefore attributable.

7% of men who were awarded war disablement pensions were as a consequence of heart problems. The case for Herbert is extremely strong taking into account he died only 1 month after being invalided.

[chrisharley9]

John William Fountain at March Cemetery was a heart failure victim following discharge - that one went through OK, but then that one was dealt with by MOD Army

Chris

[Neil Clark]

Chris,

I wonder if I could somehow use your man to try and force the Naval Historical Branch to have another look at Hoskins case? There clearly is a BIG difference between Army and Naval adjudications. We know there is a problem but no one is doing anything to correct it. I agree that the army is now completing their adjudcations in record time (weeks in some cases of late) whereas the NHB still drag their feet and totally ignore all our letters. I asked them to review Hoskins 5 years ago and I'm still waiting for a reply. Sadly I hear that Captain Chris Page the head geezer in Portsmouth is now taking a leaf out of his subordinates books and rudely ignoring letters too...

The problem lies in the fact that this work was literally "foisted" on to the NHB by the MoD (Navy) Department. They didn't want it in the first place and even admitted to me verbally that they had no real interest, expertise or training to properly deal with the work. They asked the CWGC for guidance and some idiot came up with that childish and laughable guidance document which I have refered to elsewhere on the forum. It's a bloody joke.

It's an uphill struggle and nothing is goiing to change until we get support from the BIG guns (whoever they are).

[chrisharley9]

Neil

Please do use the case of J W Fountain as an example - I believe you already have his docs - if not will mail then to you again

I would stop messing about with NHB & write direct to the Minister of Defence explaining all the difficulties that you are having with NHB - copy it to your MP as well

Chris

[alanh]

Neil thanks for kind words on my effort, which is dwarfed, by the tasks you have undertaken. thanks for the photos and have replied, hopfully thee site links have been restored now.

Alan

[Neil Clark]

Alan,

We are ALL truly a "Band of Brothers". Perhaps the time has come to properly acknowledge ALL the individuals who have EVER made representations OR facilitated this work in some way? There are quite a few now and it's unfair to only mention those you know personally. It must be acknowledged that this all follows from John Morecombe's (and Neil York) groundbreaking work in the 1990's - http://www.cwgc.co.uk/

I'd better acknowledge the work of my best mate Dave Hughes who doesn't use the forum much. Dave is responsible for most of the transcriptions on the website and he is probably the most clever person I have ever met when it comes to military history (even though he thinks he's stupid). Far more knowledgeble than any of those supposed experts who we often see on the TV. (Paul Reed and Gordon Corrigan excepted both of whom I rate highly).

We can ALL be very proud of what we have achieved here.

[Wesley]

Neil – please forgive the brief thread hijack here but I noticed you made reference on the first page to some photos relating to C. H. Vine.

Assuming these are the ones I sent you can I make a slight correction to your post…the photos are from Hampstead not Hempstead – looks like I must have made a typo when I sent them to you…sorry about that!

[Neil Clark]

Neil – please forgive the brief thread hijack here but I noticed you made reference on the first page to some photos relating to C. H. Vine.

Assuming these are the ones I sent you can I make a slight correction to your post…the photos are from Hampstead not Hempstead – looks like I must have made a typo when I sent them to you…sorry about that!

Quite right Wesley and I should have properly acknowledged where they came from too. Thanks for pointing that out. You are most welcome to hijack any thread of mine whenever you so desire...

I think you will find it was ME that made the typo! I often go shopping at Hempstead Valley Shopping Centre in Gillingham and confused the two places. Of course HAMPSTEAD is a bit more up-market.... ha ha

I gave them to Alan Humphries here - http://www.berr.gov.uk/about/aboutus/warmemorial/index.html

Vine worked for the government in his civilian life and is mentioned somewhere in Alan's superb work.

[Neil Clark]

Just heard this man has been APPROVED. Note he died of HEART DISEASE! (EDIT - AFTER DISCHARGE)

Bombardier 121428 Albert Thomas PACKHAM. 36th (Reserve) Batterty, Royal Field Artillery (RFA). Died Mitral Aortic / Cardiac Disease (Heart Problem) 5 February 1919 aged 44 years. Death Certificate gives occupation as – Farm Labourer and Army Pensioner. Resided Coldharbour, Bobbing, Sittingbourne, Kent.

Enlisted 15 November 1915. Total War service : 2 years 213 days.

Albert had 6 children.

Served in France on active service throughout 1917 and 1918. Discharged (no longer fit for war service) at Edinburgh, Scotland 15 June 1918. Awarded a Disability War Pension valvular disease of the heart (VHD), by Ministry of Pensions. His service papers clearly show that the onset of his heart disease was attributable to his war service.

The Ministry of Pensions found in this mans favour and recorded the cause of his heart disease was attributable and aggravated by his war service. He died of the SAME disease 8 months later!

I REST MY CASE! PROOF IT CAN BE DONE........ PLEASE STOP ABORTING CASUALTIES WITH HEART PROBLEMS.

[stevem]

See also the In From The Cold thread posted on 21 November 2007. Joseph Fearn died of valvular heart disease and was accepted for commemoration.

Steve

[Neil Clark]

Nice one Steve. Thanks for pointing that case out... I know you are one of the few IFTC volunteers. I admire your excellent work here...

I would add that ALL my cases I refer to here died of HEART DISEASE after discharge. If a man died of anything in service he would automatically get commemoration. The difference is palpable...

I have come across aborted cases where it was decided not to submit a case because the casualty died after discharge from heart disease or a similar problem. The point of this thread is to convey the fact that INFECTION can cause Heart problems and that it should be left to the service aithorities to make an adjudication.