'The List Regiment' - Hitler's Regiment (16th RIR)

[honorfilms]

I am writing a WWI fiction novel from the outset of the war until end of January 1915. I do need some facts on Adolf Hitler and the List Regiment that he served with. I need to know facts about names of fellow soldiers, commanders, where they fought, who died, when and how. Although my book is fictional and set around the character of a young Welshman I am including the facts of Hitler as part of the story. Does anyone know how to get a hold of the List Regiment (later called the 16th RIR) records? Probably in Germany. Any facts on names, places, commanders etc would be a great help.

Thank you

Julian Moss

honorfilms@yahoo.com

[bob lembke]

Julian;

Although the archives of the Prussian Army were destroyed at the end of WW II in a fire-bombing raid (some people maintain that they were not all destroyed, and that supposedly the Russians just gave a lot of them back to the Germans, etc., but they do not seem to be available); this does not seem to be true of the Bavarian Army, and I have heard of people conducting detailed research in these archives. The Germans seem to be generally quite open with archives and libraries; I have never gone there for research, partially as I have had so much cooperation by mail and e-mail. (I have done research in the UK, Vienna, and Slovenija on mostly the WW I German Army.)

There is considerable interest in in Regiment List, and you may find the results of the research of others.

You did not mention if you can read German. That is useful information for someone trying to help you.

Bob Lembke

[honorfilms]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the prompt reply. No sadly I don't speak German well enough to read a book, just to get by if I needed to. I do have a friend in Austria who speaks fluent German who might be able to help a little. I have garnished some information on the List Regiment from books like 'Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914-1918' by John F. Williams. His information seems quite precise on the subject as it is really all about Hitler and the List regiment. His bibliography does not mention records directly from the List regiment itself but intimates that this is the source. He does quote the Lst Regiment records so I am thinking that they do exist somewhere. I may contact the publisher and try to talk with the author about his research.

What is your research directed towards?

I am British but live in Los Angeles so popping over to Germany is not as easy as if I were in 'Blighty'!

Cheers

Julian

Julian;

Although the archives of the Prussian Army were destroyed at the end of WW II in a fire-bombing raid (some people maintain that they were not all destroyed, and that supposedly the Russians just gave a lot of them back to the Germans, etc., but they do not seem to be available); this does not seem to be true of the Bavarian Army, and I have heard of people conducting detailed research in these archives. The Germans seem to be generally quite open with archives and libraries; I have never gone there for research, partially as I have had so much cooperation by mail and e-mail. (I have done research in the UK, Vienna, and Slovenija on mostly the WW I German Army.)

There is considerable interest in in Regiment List, and you may find the results of the research of others.

You did not mention if you can read German. That is useful information for someone trying to help you.

Bob Lembke

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I have the book, just what information do you need? The request could be quite large depending upon what you are looking for exactly.

In regard to losses you should also consider all of the men who were casualties, wounded, etc. as well as KIA.

Ralph

[honorfilms]

Hi Ralph,

When you say you have the book, do you mean 'Corporal Hitler and the Great War 1914 - 1918' or something else related to the List regiment?

I need specific details of who was in the regiement and when. Who were the other dispatch runners and when. Which dispatch runners (and infantrymen) died and when and who replaced them.

This is what I do know. Dispatch runers were

1. Ernst Shmidt,

2. Hans Mend (with horse)

3. Anton Bachmann,

4. Heinrich Lugauer (who arrived around Nov 19th 1914).

I need names of the others, when they joined and who was killed and when.

I know several names of people who either trained with and served with Adolf but not their exact rank or association. They are...

1. Ignaz Westenkirchner (from training)

2. Graf von Shwerin

3. Baumann (no first name)

4. Sachse (no first name)

5.Adolf Meyer (not sure what rank).

6. Fritz Fischer – don't know if soldier or not.

7. Fritz Burgendorfer

8. Tiefenboch (no first name_)

9. Wimmer (no first name)

I also know a little about the following, but not enough...

Josef Wenzel – regimental orderly (not a soldier)

George Eichelsdorfer (regimental adjunct)

Max Amman (Sergeant)

Hugo Gutman (assistant adjunct Jewish)

And for Captains I only know of 2...

Captain Rudolf Hess (Hitler drawn to him)

Captain Franz Rubenhauer.

Leftenants I know are...

Second Leftenant Pylote

Leftenant Friedrich "Fritz' Weiderman

Leftenant Stower – killed

Leftenant Guttman – gave Adolf his iron cross.

Then there are a couple of names that drift in but I don't know their function or relevance to Hitler.....

Schmidt – Sergeant.

Max Amman – Sergeant Major.

Freiherr Von Tubeuf

Does anyone know if the List regiment papers still exist anywhere? Books seem to quote them so I suspect that they do, probably back in Germany.

Where was the List HQ back in Bavaria? Was or is there an exct address or museum where these files are kept.

The 'Hilter' part of my novel needs to be as accurate as possible, the fictional story I am creating is exactly that and does not matter.

Any advice, names, dates etc that you have or can point me to would be of great value.

Thank you

I have the book, just what information do you need? The request could be quite large depending upon what you are looking for exactly.

In regard to losses you should also consider all of the men who were casualties, wounded, etc. as well as KIA.

Ralph

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Hello Julian,

I have the regimental history of the List Regiment. Your inquiry is quite broad and much of what you are looking for is not readily available outside the Munich Archives where the Bavarian Army records are kept.

The regimental histories do make mention of individuals from time to time but without a comprehensive index it is difficult to locate a particular person for a particular time. Unfortunately the easist way to research a German soldier from the war is if he died. The regimental lists all of the dead from 1914-1918 and in many instances provides rank but not the specific details you are looking for.

I will look through the book to see if any names do appear but unless there was a specific story or other incident that would include their names I am afraid you or someone on your behalf will have to go to the military archives in Bavaria.

Let me see what I can find.

Ralph

[honorfilms]

Thanks Ralph,

How did you get a hold of the Regimental List history book? Is this something that I can research here in Los Angeles?

I wonder where authors of books get their information from regarding the List Regiment and Hitler's part in the regiment as a dispatch runner.

The book 'Corporal Hitler and the Great War' by John F. Williams intimates that he resarched such archives as you have mentioned, but did not seem to appear the in bibliography.

Where are the Munich archives held? Munich obviously, but is there a specific building, address, person to contact?

Reason I ask is that I have a German speaking girlfriend in Austria who might be able to send an email in German to the Munich archive and ask some questions on my behalf.

The bottom line is that I want this portion of the novel regarding Hitler to be as acurate as possible with as many correct names, dates, times events as possible so as not to offend those who really know.

In fact those who really know are the people I want to approach for acuracy. Sounds like you are one of them, Ralph. Thanks for your help.

What is your interest in the List Regiment?

Cheers

Julian

Hello Julian,

I have the regimental history of the List Regiment. Your inquiry is quite broad and much of what you are looking for is not readily available outside the Munich Archives where the Bavarian Army records are kept.

The regimental histories do make mention of individuals from time to time but without a comprehensive index it is difficult to locate a particular person for a particular time. Unfortunately the easist way to research a German soldier from the war is if he died. The regimental lists all of the dead from 1914-1918 and in many instances provides rank but not the specific details you are looking for.

I will look through the book to see if any names do appear but unless there was a specific story or other incident that would include their names I am afraid you or someone on your behalf will have to go to the military archives in Bavaria.

Let me see what I can find.

Ralph

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Julian,

I purchased the book some years back while doing some research project, later I used it to help identify Gefreiter Leopold Rothärmel 16th Bavarian RIR who was discovered on an archaeological dig a few years back. Using the book and other records the team was able to identify one of 5 German bodies discovered on that dig.

The regimental histories relied upon the war time records of the different units so much of their materials come from archive information. The Bavarian Archive details can be seen here: http://www.gda.bayern.de/staarin.htm

I am not sure what can be done long distance, it may take a trip or researcher to visit the site. Good luck with the search. I will get back to you as quickly as I can.

Ralph

[honorfilms]

That's amazing. How interesting. As an amateur or professionally?

Thanks for the link and yes, I will probably have to take a visit to Munich and perhaps drag along my Austrian grilfriend to translate for me.

I'll look at the site now and see what transpires.

Thanks again. You've been a great help.

Julian

Julian,

I purchased the book some years back while doing some research project, later I used it to help identify Gefreiter Leopold Rothärmel 16th Bavarian RIR who was discovered on an archaeological dig a few years back. Using the book and other records the team was able to identify one of 5 German bodies discovered on that dig.

The regimental histories relied upon the war time records of the different units so much of their materials come from archive information. The Bavarian Archive details can be seen here: http://www.gda.bayern.de/staarin.htm

I am not sure what can be done long distance, it may take a trip or researcher to visit the site. Good luck with the search. I will get back to you as quickly as I can.

Ralph

[bierast]

You can buy the RIR16 regimental history in electronic form here for 10 EUR:

www.military-books.de.vu

This seller has scanned a large number of these rare and expensive books and offers them cheaply for sale on disc. Definitely by far the cheapest way to get access to the contents, and also saves wear and tear on library copies - a very good thing IMHO. A French friend introduced me to them recently - I was very impressed by the books he had bought from them already, and will be making a large order myself soon for a bunch of histories of Saxon regiments.

ARL

[honorfilms]

Dear ARL,

Thank you so much for that link. This is perfect. Yes, 10EUR is far cheaper than a flight from the US to Munich !!! Thanks for the link. Much appreciated.

Best

Julian

You can buy the RIR16 regimental history in electronic form here for 10 EUR:

www.military-books.de.vu

This seller has scanned a large number of these rare and expensive books and offers them cheaply for sale on disc. Definitely by far the cheapest way to get access to the contents, and also saves wear and tear on library copies - a very good thing IMHO. A French friend introduced me to them recently - I was very impressed by the books he had bought from them already, and will be making a large order myself soon for a bunch of histories of Saxon regiments.

ARL

[vancouver_len]

Good day everyone.

This thread is from awhile ago so I'm not sure if the participants are still members. That said I'll post my question and see if anyone can assist.

I have a news clipping from back in 1943 regarding my grandfather where he claims he was in the same army unit as Hitler in the great war. In WWI he was living in Europe and claimed to be in the same unit as Hitler. By WWII he had immigrated to Canada and assisted in the training of Canadian troups for battle in Europe.

I'm trying to determine if the story is true, or if he embellished his claims to get a higher ranking when he volunteered in Canada.

Obviously he did not die in WWI, and I've read the posts with respect to finding those who died easier then those who lived.

Since the time this thread was created I wonder if any other sources of data have become available to search and see if my grandfather's name was in the same unit as Hitler?

I do not speak German so I'm wondering how I might begin my search/

Any advice or asistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Kindly,

Len Boyko

Vancouver Canada

PS. The grandfather I refer to was my mother's father so my last name is not that of my grandfather.

[bob lembke]

Good day everyone.

This thread is from awhile ago so I'm not sure if the participants are still members. That said I'll post my question and see if anyone can assist.

I have a news clipping from back in 1943 regarding my grandfather where he claims he was in the same army unit as Hitler in the great war. In WWI he was living in Europe and claimed to be in the same unit as Hitler. By WWII he had immigrated to Canada and assisted in the training of Canadian troups for battle in Europe.

I'm trying to determine if the story is true, or if he embellished his claims to get a higher ranking when he volunteered in Canada.

Obviously he did not die in WWI, and I've read the posts with respect to finding those who died easier then those who lived.

Since the time this thread was created I wonder if any other sources of data have become available to search and see if my grandfather's name was in the same unit as Hitler?

I do not speak German so I'm wondering how I might begin my search/

Any advice or asistance would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Kindly,

Len Boyko

Vancouver Canada

PS. The grandfather I refer to was my mother's father so my last name is not that of my grandfather.

Len;

Published materials such as unit histories for obvious reasons do not mention many of the enlisted men, for obvious reasons; I would guess that in the course of the war probably about 10,000 men passed thru the regiment in one way or another. So "serving in Hitler's regiment" is not as exotic as it sounds. However, as the Bavarian Archives survived the research is not impossible. Do not expect that an e-mail to the Archives will lead them to conduct a search of their materials; it probably is the sort of request that they are very tired of. However, it would be possible to hire a professional researcher or geneologist in Bavaria to so the research, hopefully someone who works in the Archive a lot and can do a search efficiently.

Bob Lembke

PS: I am assuming that your grandfather was an enlisted man. If he was an officer, and had been commissioned before the war broke out, the search would be easy. The vast part of the officers that were "coined" during the war were one sort or another of reserve officer and usually it even is hard or impossible to find any trace of them, unless very lucky, from any published source, and possibly not even in the archives.

[apwright]

Hi Len,

The Kriegsranglisten and Stammrollen of Bavarian Reserve Infantry Regiment No.16 can now be searched on Ancestry. What was your grandfather's name?

Adrian

[vancouver_len]

Hi Adrian and Bob,

Thank you for your responses.

My grandfather claimed to be a "buddy" of Hitler and to know him quite well. I believe he was an enlisted man because he stated that as Hitler was promoted to corporal they parted company and "he developed an attitude of superiority" [his words to the reporter].

He actually claim to be in the same "unit" but I really have no idea if that is any different from being in a "regiment". Is a unit part of a regiment or are they one in the same?

My grandfather's name was Mike Einhorn. The last name is spelt correctly, the first name of course would have the applicable language spelling. Mike, being the English version. He immigrated to Canada in 1920 or 1921 with his wife and 2 children [my two oldest uncles on my mother's side] coming over in 1925, all settling in Saskatchewan.

As stated I have my doubts on the whole story but thought I would start with confirming the war story before attempting to tackle anything else. There is a possibility they knew each other before WWI as well, but I needed to start somewhere thinking war records would tell me whether or not it was worth it to dig deeper.

Would the German government honor or be able to fulfill a request for war records from WWI?

I ask because my father was in WWII and I've requested his war records from the Canadian government. I'm expecting documents that tell me where he served, etc... and wonder if such a thing exists for WWI?

By the way I went on Ancestry.uk and I didn't see the German listings, just the British. Did I look in the wrong place?

Thanks for your insight, it's most appreciated.

[apwright]

Len,

The records on Ancestry are under "Military Collection" > "Bavaria, Germany, WWI Personnel Rosters, 1914-1918".

Unfortunately there's only one Einhorn in the lists and he's in a different regiment:

No.391 Volunteer/Gefreiter Julius Einhorn of 10th Company, Bavarian Landwehr Infantry Regiment No.3. Jewish, born Munich 10 Dec 1875, Merchant, residing at Giesebrechtstraße 15/I in Berlin-Charlottenburg with wife Emma (nee Levy-Roth) and one child. Both parents deceased. Suffered a shrapnel wound to the right leg on 27/7/15 at Lingekopf.

EDIT: Just found your grandfather's family's arrival in Halifax on 16 Feb 1925 in the immigration records. They were joining Michael Einhorn in Rosthern, Sask., who arrived 2 years previously. It says they from Lanowcach in Poland, so I would have thought it unlikely that your grandfather served in a Bavarian regiment.

Adrian

[vancouver_len]

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for looking for me. I definitely missed the information on ancestry.

About my grandfather, yes his wife was polish, also a catholic. Family stories indicate that he came from a VERY prominent Jewish family and when he met her and wanted to start a relationship he was excommunicated from the family. I don't know where they met in Europe but it is possible as a WWI soldier that he met her in his travels. From what I know he was a German Jew, although German may have meant Austrian or Bavarian. After being booted from the family he settled in Poland with his bride before leaving for Canada. When settling in Saskatchewan, they also settled in a German area, rather than a predominantly Ukrainian or Polish area.

At least those are the stories. Some of the details match up, other don't. Over time and through various story tellers, things change so I'm trying to sort through it.

Why I find this intriguing is because of the dynamic claimed by my grandfather. If Hitler's hatred of Jews was developed over time, it's conceivable that it was because of interactions with them so his claims of interaction could be true.

I have found some information on my grandmother and her first two sons, as you did - on the Canadian gov web site. Can you paste the link to what you found so I can see if it's the same pages or if it has any different information? That would be grand.

Again, thank you for your time and interest.

[Frederick1]

My father told me that my Grandfather was in the same regiment as Adolf Hitler during world war one. However my grand father came from Breslau/Brieg Schlesian (which I thought was a Prussian district). He was under age when he joined, hence lied about his age. Nevertheless they boarded a train and went to Munich. My farther said that my grandfather spent most of the time at Verdun. My grandfather was wounded on about the same day as Hilter was, about 8th Oct 1916. They were in the same hospital ward in Beelitz Hospital. When I showed my father an internet picture of the hospital photo at Beelitz with Hitler and a group of German soldiers in Hospital dress, he said, that his father was the man standing next to Hitler.

My father said that his father was a Social Democrat and Hitler and my grandfather had some heated arguments in hospital about politics. After treatment at Beelitz, my grandfather did not take any further part in the war.

However, once Hitler was becoming well known as a politician (I don't know whether, it was before Hitler became elected or after), but reporters use to come around to their house and ask questions about (what my grand father) knew about Hitlers WWI experiences. This was in Brieg. My father says that once Hitler got into power, life became hard for the Wassmann family, (because of my father being a social democrat and the arguments he used to have with Hitler about politics). The Nazi's would not allow my father to get an apprenticeship with his uncles in Brieg, but made my father work on a farm. My grandfather was conscripted back into the Army in WWII.

My grandfathers name was Martin Wassmann.

I have written to the Bavarian war archives, but they cannot find any Martin Wassmann.

My question is: Is there any way of finding out who's names the soldiers in the Beelitz Hospital photograph (Oct 1916) are, to confirm if my fathers story is correct.

[Frederick1]

I have the book, just what information do you need? The request could be quite large depending upon what you are looking for exactly.

In regard to losses you should also consider all of the men who were casualties, wounded, etc. as well as KIA.

Ralph

My father told me that my Grandfather was in the same regiment as Adolf Hitler during world war one. However my grand father came from Breslau/Brieg Schlesian (which I thought was a Prussian district). He was under age when he joined, hence lied about his age. Nevertheless they boarded a train and went to Munich. My farther said that my grandfather spent most of the time at Verdun. My grandfather was wounded on about the same day as Hilter was, about 8th Oct 1916. They were in the same hospital ward in Beelitz Hospital. When I showed my father an internet picture of the hospital photo at Beelitz with Hitler and a group of German soldiers in Hospital dress, he said, that his father was the man standing next to Hitler.

My father said that his father was a Social Democrat and Hitler and my grandfather had some heated arguments in hospital about politics. After treatment at Beelitz, my grandfather did not take any further part in the war.

However, once Hitler was becoming well known as a politician (I don't know whether, it was before Hitler became elected or after), but reporters use to come around to their house and ask questions about (what my grand father) knew about Hitlers WWI experiences. This was in Brieg. My father says that once Hitler got into power, life became hard for the Wassmann family, (because of my father being a social democrat and the arguments he used to have with Hitler about politics). The Nazi's would not allow my father to get an apprenticeship with his uncles in Brieg, but made my father work on a farm. My grandfather was conscripted back into the Army in WWII.

My grandfathers name was Martin Wassmann.

I have written to the Bavarian war archives, but they cannot find any Martin Wassmann.

My question is: Is there any way of finding out who's names the soldiers in the Beelitz Hospital photograph (Oct 1916) are, to confirm if my fathers story is correct.

I can be contacted at:

saw94@bigpond.net.au

[Hubert Wetzel]

On 27/09/2008 at 05:40, Ralph J. Whitehead said:

I have the book, just what information do you need? The request could be quite large depending upon what you are looking for exactly.

In regard to losses you should also consider all of the men who were casualties, wounded, etc. as well as KIA.

Ralph

Hi Ralph, could you do me a favour and look in the regimental history of bay RIR 16 where exactly it was deployed on July 31, 1917 (first day of Third Ypres)? Apparently most of the regiment was taken out of the lines at Ypres by then, but 2nd Bat and the Regimental HQ stayed a bit longer and where hit by the British offensive. Does it say in the history where exactly they were? If so, I’d appreciate any information, even maybe a foto of the page (Email address removed) Thanks so much, cheers! Hubert 

[Michelle Young]

@Ralph J. Whitehead is still visiting the forum. My tag should alert them to your post. I’ve removed your email address from your post. Never a good idea to put personal information on a public forum. 

[Hubert Wetzel]

Ok, thank you.

[charlie2]

1 hour ago, Hubert Wetzel said:

even maybe a foto of the page

Hope this is what you want.

Charlie

[Hubert Wetzel]

Thank you! Perfect!

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

It would seem that you received the information requested. Sorry I didn’t see it sooner. Ralph