hmsk212 Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Hi I have the British War Medal to 53284 Harold Parker 122nd Machine Gun Corps who came from Lees Hill Street, Nottingham. Luckily his Service Records have survived at Kew. He first enlisted on 14/11/1914 joining the Notts & Derby Regiment, transferring to the MGC on 14/08/1916 and going to France on 13/09/1916. On 18/10/1917 he was discharged aged 21 years & 9 months as "Not fit for War Service" due to Diabetes which originated in July 1917 as a result of the nervous strain of active service He was awarded the Silver War Badge number 262538. My question is, should he have been recognised by the CWGC as a War death as he subsequently died due to the Diabetes on 28/12/1919? Or, has he indeed been recognised by the CWGC and I just can't find him? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Recognition of a post-discharge casualty before 31.08.21 depends solely on proof of the illness being caused by service between 04.08.14 and 31.12.21. If the illness from which he died after leaving service was not caused by or exacerbated by military service he will not qualify for CWGC commemoration. This is the major problem with post-discharge deaths. It is very difficult to prove some illnesses were CAUSED by service and did not merely just happen during service. Of course, if he had died of diabetes before being discharged, he would have qualified as all deaths between the dates whilst in service qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 I can't find him either and so it looks as though he does not qualify. I am no doctor but is diabetes an illness that could be caused by or made worse by military service? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 29 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Hi Terry I have a copy of his pensioner's record card which states that his invaliding disability is diabetes, date of origin was July 1917 and cause of disability was "Active Service attributed". The Medical Board report for 27/09/1917, Clipstone Military Hospital, also makes the following statements :- the diabetes was attributable, the result of active service, nervous strain of active service, requires out-patient treatment, Permanent Total incapacity at present. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Steve Now that you have told us that, I would say that he would qualify. The problem is that, once a man was discharged, the military no longer had a responsibility to inform CWGC of a death (even if they knew about it). Notification came from n-o-k and other sources. This is why many post-discharge qualifiers were initially omitted and some remain so. Do you have any other records on which we could base a claim with CWGC? Death certificate, service records, MIC etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 ... I am no doctor but is diabetes an illness that could be caused by or made worse by military service? No, it's not. You can't catch diabetes or pass it on, and it is not caused by stress. One might at a stretch call it 'attributable' in the sense that he developed diabetes on active service but not because of active service. It is a serious illness and it was a killer until insulin came along in the 1920s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 29 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 February , 2004 One might at a stretch call it 'attributable' in the sense that he developed diabetes on active service but not because of active service. Hi It seems strange then that the Medical Board at the time stated that it was attributable and was the result of Nervous Strain of Active Service. So even if now it is known not to be the cause surely at the time he should have been added to the CWGC lists Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 29 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Hopefully attached is part of the report Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Here is a good example of the problems in getting post-discharge men added to CWGC's database. Unless the cause of death is definately attributable to war service then he cannot be added. Merely suffering from an illness in service, then being discharged and subsequently dying of it is not sufficient. My limited understanding of this condition agrees with Clive's. I believe a lot of illness was attributed to previous war experiences in the 20s and 30s - probably not always correctly. It was more clear cut in the case of wounds. I think this case might have a chance of succeeding if all the documentary evidence was put forward. Steve's documents could sway the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Steve I have a 1915 Trio and SWB to a soldier in the 3rd London's who died under almost identical circumstances. I bought the group a few years back and was able to ascertain from the War Pensions Agency that he died in 1917 from diabetes mellitus. The CWGC claimed that he was not commemorated by them as this would not have been attributable to war service. It was not until the general release of soldiers papers that I was able to obtain a copy of his medical reports which state quite categorically that his death was due to active service. I certainly intend to raise the issue again with the CWGC - would be nice to see him commemorated in their database! Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 29 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Hi, Thanks to everyone for your input I think my next step must be to obtain an official copy of his death certificate and then proceed from there. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 February , 2004 Share Posted 29 February , 2004 Steve/Ed If I can be of any help in your quest, just email me off-Forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drummy Posted 1 March , 2004 Share Posted 1 March , 2004 Curous to see that Ed Matthews mentions War Pensions Agency, what information do they hold on First war sevice personnel. I thought The NA had all WW1 records that survive now?? Thanks Neil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Matthews Posted 2 March , 2004 Share Posted 2 March , 2004 Hi Drummy The medal group came with a condolence slip but given the fact that he is not commemorated anywhere and that he was discharged from the Army, I tried the War Pensions Agency in the event that he was in receipt of a pension. They were able to supply date and cause of death but that was all. This was before the general relase of First World War service papers to the PRO/NA which provide a lot more information. Terry - I'll be in touch shortly; thanks for the offer. Cheers Ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Bagshaw Posted 5 March , 2004 Share Posted 5 March , 2004 My great grandfather was discharged from the army in 1919 after serving. Is it likely that he would have been in receipt of a war pension? If so how can i contact the War Pensions Agency to find out? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 18 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2005 Hi Terry Finally, almost a year later, I have got around to getting a copy of Harold Parker's Death Certificate. This shows that he did indeed die from Diabetes. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRIAN TALMER Posted 18 January , 2005 Share Posted 18 January , 2005 No, it's not. You can't catch diabetes or pass it on, and it is not caused by stress. Clive I beg to differ. True you can't catch diabetes, however if the biological predisposition exists extreme stress can be the triggering factor. If he had not been exposed to the conditions on active service he may never have developed the condition. We will never know. Steve - now you have the death certificate give it a try - Good Luck Lesley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 18 January , 2005 Share Posted 18 January , 2005 Unless the cause of death is definately attributable to war service Should "Accoording to who and when" not be the question that we need to answer? I'll think you'l have a hard time now convincing (proving to) people the pancreas stopped producing insuline due to stress. I have never seen scientific evidence of this. And believe me I know a little what I'm talking about. Diabtetes can cause stress, but that's an other story However, if a temporary document states he died due to war service who is the CWGC to decide with hindsight whether that document is right or not? And if they are would it work the other way around as well? Can they strike people from the list of recognised war dead? Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 18 January , 2005 Share Posted 18 January , 2005 Marco CWGC neither add nor remove names from their list on their own decision. Authority for this comes from the UK MoD and the equivalent departments in the Dominions. It is they who decide and it is to them that CWGC must submit any documentary evidence. It will be very difficult to prove that this case is service induced as it will require contemporary evidence. Often the death certificate will help by saying 'caused by military service' or similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco Posted 19 January , 2005 Share Posted 19 January , 2005 It will be very difficult to prove that this case is service induced Terry, It says so on a contemporary document = medical report (whether they were right or not). What else does the CWGC need? Regards, Marco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larneman Posted 19 January , 2005 Share Posted 19 January , 2005 QUOTE (Clive Maier @ Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:10:08 +0000) No, it's not. You can't catch diabetes or pass it on, and it is not caused by stress. Clive I beg to differ. True you can't catch diabetes, however if the biological predisposition exists extreme stress can be the triggering factor. Does the CWGC look at the medical knowledge of 2005 or what the doctors knew and believed true in 1914-1919. Liam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 19 January , 2005 Share Posted 19 January , 2005 Liam As I said above, CWGC do NOT make the final evaluation. It is the MoD who would evaluate the evidence. CWGC act as a filter and pass on to the relevant Commonwealth authority each case which could possibly fit the criteria. I would imagine they look at things with modern eyes. Marco If there is documentary evidence from an official source, it is always right and proper to try to get the case accepted. As much official evidence as possible is needed. For a case of death after discharge, you have to prove that (1) the man in question was in the forces during the qualifying period, (2) his cause of death and (3) that the cause of death was a direct result of service during the qualifying period or was exacerbated/hastened by such service (ie he may have died from an unrelated lung complaint but if he had been gassed and the lungs had been damaged, there is a case). This latter point is the hardest to prove and the standards are quite tough. The obvious documents needed in most cases are the death certificate, MIC and service record where they exist (I have had one case accepted where a certificate could not be found by GRO). Thereafter, any other official papers will help make the case - medical documents, pension records, war diary mentions etc. These can be backed up by newspaper reports, SDGW etc although these are not primary evidence and carry little weight on their own. Also the existance of a unique death plaque can help. I stress that these latter items are really only any good as supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 19 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2005 I have absolutely nothing to lose so I will give it a go and keep everything crossed as far as the outcome is concerned. I am upgrading my computer this weekend so I probably will not start this project for a while but I will let everyone know any progress as and when it happens. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 19 January , 2005 Share Posted 19 January , 2005 Steve If I can be of any help, give me a shout. Funnily enough, I was reading about a WW1 soldier who died of diabetes only today. However, he was still serving and so his qualification was not in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 19 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2005 Steve If I can be of any help, give me a shout. Funnily enough, I was reading about a WW1 soldier who died of diabetes only today. However, he was still serving and so his qualification was not in question. Thanks for that Terry, I will pm you for a bit of advice when I start to put his case forward. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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