Hospital Ship Glengorm Castle

[Messina1915]

I've found a picture of the Glengorm Castle in this thread but I was wondering if anyone knew any details of her time as a hospital ship other than the fact she was involved with the Gallipoli campaign?

And what would a dresser do on a hospital ship? Does it relate to dressing wounds?

Cheers,

Carole.

[spithead]

Hello Carole, some information to be going on with

GERMAN 1898 / GLENGORM CASTLE 1914

The GERMAN was a 6,763 gross ton passenger / cargo ship, length 440.3ft x beam 53.2ft, one funnel, two masts, speed 12 knots, accommodation for 76-1st, 105-2nd and 98-3rd class passengers.

Built 1898 by Harland & Wolff, Belfast for the Union SS Co., she collided with and sank Wilson Line's s/s CORSO the same year in the River Elbe. Shortly afterward, she collided with the sailing barque SAVERNAKE with minor damage. She arrived at Capetown from Southampton on her maiden voyage on 29th Jan.1899. 1900 came under the ownership of Union-Castle Mail SS Co. In 1914 she was converted into a hospital ship with 423 beds and because of anti-German sentiment was renamed GLENGORM CASTLE.. 1921 Among the last hospital ships to be decommissioned, but apart from one mail voyage to South Africa, she continued in Government service as a troopship.In 1925 she returned to intermediate service for Union-Castle Line and in 1930 was scrapped at Rotterdam. (TheShipList)

Regards John

[auchonvillerssomme]

Was the Glengorm castle the same as the Glencorm Castle?

Mick

[Messina1915]

Hi John,

Already seen that info through a Google search but many thanks :-)

Cheers,

Carole.

[Messina1915]

Was the Glengorm castle the same as the Glencorm Castle?

Mick

Photo seems quite like photo in previous thread (see link in initial post) so I'd say that it's likely they are one and the same - a google search on Glencorm Castle doesn't throw up any information about a different hospital ship, just a link to an auction website.

Cheers,

Carole.

[Doc2]

I've found a picture of the Glengorm Castle in this thread but I was wondering if anyone knew any details of her time as a hospital ship other than the fact she was involved with the Gallipoli campaign?

And what would a dresser do on a hospital ship? Does it relate to dressing wounds?

Cheers,

Carole.

Yes, I believe a "dresser" would have been what today is called a medical orderly or nursing assistant--- He would have helped provide care for patients, including replacing bandages ("dressings"). Doc

[Messina1915]

Many thanks Doc

Cheers,

Carole.

[John Gilinsky]

Google "sick berth attendant" and you should get an idea of what "dressers" did officially at least.

At least one history of the Royal Navy Sick Berth Attendants has appeared in the past ( I think in the 1990s )in England.

John

Toronto

[Messina1915]

Many thanks John

Cheers,

Carole.

[SimonB]

My Grandfather was evacuated on the Glengorm Castle .... though if I have misread it would be happy to be corrected.  The question I have is would the Hospital Ship take the wounded from Gallipoli directly to Alexandria.  Onward travel back to the UK, would this have also been a Hospital Ship or would they have used a troop carrier.  Any info gratefully received.  Many Thanks.

 

[horatio2]

Hospital ships operated direct between Gallipoli and Alexandria - a passage of about 50 to 60 hours . Men requiring further treatment in UK were transported home by hospital ship. GLENGORM CASTLE made such a passage from Alexandria to UK in mid-November 1915.

[SimonB]

Many thanks horatio2 .... 

 

My Grandfather, Guy Percival Sweet arrived on the Mauretania at Mudros on the Friday 3rd September. We know this from a post card he sent as he departed, and from the War Diary of the Embarkation officer in Mudros who noted the arrival of the ship into the harbour. He also recorded reinforcements being despatched on the 5th and 6th Sept to Suvla Bay ... I have made an assumption that he would have been amongst those troops and the 7th Glosters were incredibly low on men and officers at that time.

 

If he gets to Suvla around the 7th Sept. He then gets shot and develops dysentery. 

 

I know that the Glengorm Castle didn't transfer him from Mudros to Alexandria as the Embarkation officer would have shown it in his War Diary.

 

So I suspect that this label was used for his transfer from 21st General Hospital, Alexandria to the Glengorm Castle for his trip home.  

 

I am thinking that the date on the label is not the date of the transfer but the date of his wounding.  Why would you put a date of the 27th Oct on a label when the ship wasn't leaving till mid Nov. 

 

I made some progress but can't see any records of Hospital Ships leaving Alexandria. Can you throw any further light on the the mid November passage. Which records / war diary would have that info ... or would that be telling  

 

Many Thanks

 

Simon

[horatio2]

9 hours ago, SimonB said:

I made some progress but can't see any records of Hospital Ships leaving Alexandria. Can you throw any further light on the the mid November passage. Which records / war diary would have that info

Correction: the passage home was actually in early December 1915. I have nothing more on the passage which I note only because a Petty Office of Hawke Bn RND died of wounds at 3pm on 9 December aboard Hospital Ship "Glengorm Castle" (GSW Head, compound fracture Skull 18/11/15) whilst on passage to UK from Alexandria. He was buried at sea. GLENGORM CASTLE had left Alexandria on 6 December. This detail comes from the Petty Officer's records.

[SimonB]

Many thanks for this ..... its good to know that I wasn't missing something obvious.  Many Thanks

[ZeZe]

Hi,

Timeline for H.M.H.S. Glengorm Castle (additions / corrections welcome). H.M.H.S. Glengorm Castle had several medical staff in common with H.M.H.S. Gascon including O/C R.A.M.C. Major Chevers, some of the nurses and Pte. Matthews.

For a detailed account of H.M.H.S. Gascon during the Gallipoli campaign, see Frev’s blog:https://www.greatwarforum.org/blogs/entry/2643-hmhs-gascon-during-the-gallipoli-campaign-1915-plus-some-early-history/

 

Indian Medical Service, H.M.H.S Glengorm Castle.

I haven’t included all the male medical staff named in the War Diary, there are too many. The Indian medical title ‘Dresser’ is confusing, nowadays a ‘surgical assistant whose primary duty is bandaging and dressing wounds’, but during WW1 the title appears to have been given to civil doctors who assisted the professional army surgeons on board I.M.S. hospital ships. The war diary illustrates this as on 20.10.14. Mr. K C BATES posted to Asst: to Lt-Colonel JAMESON & Mr. G LONG posted to Asst: to Lt-Colonel HULBERT; etc. They held the rank ‘Dresser’ when serving on board but when they later disembarked to a land based role with the R.A.M.C. their rank changed to Captain e.g. Dresser/Captain Charles H C Byrne & Dresser/Captain Thomas Patterson. 

The preparations to fit-out Glengorm Castle as a hospital ship were completed by 20^th October 1914 and she sailed for Boulogne, the first of four return trips to Southampton, exclusively with Indian wounded Officers and men. On the 16th December Lt-Col. Prall was informed ‘that the War Office had taken over ships and he and his ‘army’ was to turn over to “Gascon”.’ You can tell how frustrated Lt-Col Prall was with the India Office, and all the changes, by the double and triple exclamation marks written in the war diary. HMHS Gascon’s single trip to Boulogne with HMHS Glengorm Castle’s medical staff on board was probably her first voyage as a hospital ship in WW1. HMHS Gascon returned to Southampton with 12 Indian Officers and 330 men on the 26th December 1914.

On the 11th January 1915 Glengorm Castle sailed with 5 Officers and 337 men, all wounded Indian, for Alexandria. For the next seven months (at least) Glengorm Castle transported British wounded back from Alexandria, calling and disembarking some wounded at Malta and Gibraltar and on to Southampton, returning with Indian wounded embarked at Boulogne, calling and disembarking some wounded at Marseilles and then sailing on to Alexandria. In the war diary, page 54, there is a summary page listing the numbers of wounded transported between each port for the period 30th October 1914 to 19th August 1915.

Published in NZ Journal Kai Tiaki, 1st April 1916, Sister Chalmers (I believe this is Sister May CHALMER) writes from Glengorm Castle explaining how the cultural sensibilities were observed: ‘We are always able to go ashore at these French towns as we are not allowed to nurse the Indians, or go into the wards. We feel very sad about it, as we dislike the inactivity of the voyage home to Alexandria, and would gladly nurse the poor Indians if we were allowed……... On the way back to Alexandria we have a French class every day with Col. Rowcrofte. He is most awfully good to us, as indeed they all are. We carry Indian doctors, who act as sub-assistants to the English Medicos and work with us in the wards, but going back to Alexandria they take the sister's place as head of the ward with the Indian patients. Then we have Indian orderlies who clean during the voyage to England, and R.A.M.C. orderlies who help us and attend to the meals. Going back the order is reversed — the R.A.M.C. do the cleaning and the Indians do the nursing.’

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/periodicals/kai-tiaki-the-journal-of-the-nurses-of-new-zealand/1916/04/01/24

* * *

R.A.M.C. No.1346, Pte. Henry James Matthews

I’ve looked on FMP and it appears Pte. Matthews’ service record have not survived but a newspaper article in the Sheerness Guardian and East Kent Advertiser, published Saturday 05 April 1919, has an intriguing list of his postings including to both hospital ships.

The details given (dates in brackets are my best guess):

Entered France with 2^nd Field Ambulance, 19th August 1914 and wounded at the Marne, to hospital, London (September/October 1914).

Five months later (March/April 1915?) Pte. Matthews was drafted to Serbia. The article states: ...‘Twenty-five men of the R.A.M.C. were sent up to the Serbian lines to do what they could to alleviate the terrible privations and suffering of the wounded men, and for eighteen days they worked like Trojans at their tasks before the fearful onslaught of the enemy was stayed. Their experiences during this terrible time were only comparable to those of the Mons retreat, which have been described as “hell”. During the period in which the Serbians were being reorganised, Pte Matthews was assisting at a base hospital in that country, and was afterwards transferred to the hospital ship “Gascon” running between the Dardanelles, Alexandria, and Malta. This work was continued until the evacuation of Gallipoli when he joined the “Glengorm Castle”...

“Gascon” Dardanelles, Alexandria & Malta (October – December 1915?).

“Glengorm Castle” transporting wounded to Southampton (1916?).

Hospital ship “Dieppe”.

Belgian hospital ship “Pieter de Coninck”, Dover – Boulogne.

Henry was awarded the Serbian Gold Medal. If the timeline is correct the R.A.M.C. men entered Serbia in the Spring of 1915, well before the Central Powers offensive in October 1915 that forced the Serbian retreat across the mountains of Albania. Does anyone have any info for the 25 R.A.M.C. men - dates, where they were stationed, etc? Presumably there were R.A.M.C. officers in charge of the detachment and the privates where acting as their orderlies.

London Gazette award of the Gold Medal: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29945/supplement/1620/data.pdf

* * *

Photo of the staff of Gascon, https://www.illawarraremembers.com.au/node/90 The note states ‘Clementina Marshall back row centre, previously Sydney hospital, Matron Woolley British army seated middle row, Christine Dickson and nurse Porter seated bottom row, Australian doctors and surgeons Syme, Colonel Major surgeon Illias left centre, Dr. surgeon Fiaschi’.

I cannot identify Christine Dickson – any ideas?

Photograph Album held by the National Army Museum of New Zealand, collated by 22/74 Sister Mary Eleanor Gould, includes group photos for both H.M.H.S. Gascon & H.M.H.S. Glengorm Castle:https://nam.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/11544

War diaries, Gascon & Glengorm Castle:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/b0b2a691b1cc4be4a1b4a84a3c835ac3

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a369cc3389054a849d5c9c63957fc7ba

 

Major G.F Rowcroft IMS, a biography: https://www.facebook.com/930078003741590/posts/ww1-1914-15-star-major-gf-rowcroft-ims-indian-medical-service-and-victory-medalp/2775399222542783/

Regards ZeZe

[alf mcm]

Hello ZeZe,

  Your comments on the Dressers are interesting. 

Maud McCarthy has a couple of items of interest;-

27.04.16
Wire from ADMS Marseilles informing us that Staff Nurse Hay had joined Glengorm Castle.

01.11.16
Was informed by Miss Hordley that the Glengorm Castle had sprung a leak, and that Miss Flanagan, posted in relief of Miss O’Shea, had been withdrawn in consequence, as there was a question whether the ship would be able to carry sick on her return journey. Instructed the Principal Matron that if the ship loaded up Miss Flanagan should rejoin and this office should be notified through the DDMS.

Regards,

Alf McM

[alf mcm]

ZeZe,

Staff Nurse B. WOLLMAN is Beatrice WOLLMAN. I also can’t see a file for her, but there is a pension record for her on Fold 3, but I haven’t had a chance to look at it.

You will remember that we had a problem finding a record for Helena HARTIGAN. I believe this record may include her file, but it has not been digitised;- Sister Helena HARTIGAN, Queen Alexandra's Imperial Military Nursing Service (Reserve).... | The National Archives

 

More from Maud McCarthy

18.07.18
S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR: Received wire from DGMS asking if S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR is desirous of proceeding to Egypt with a view to nursing Jewish patients. Replied that this lady is at present on leave in the United Kingdom and is due back on the 27th and gave her home address. Added that there is no record in this office of this application.
 

28.08.18
S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR: Received wire from S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR to report to Taranto on September 8th for passage to Egypt.

10.09.18

S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR: Sent memo to DGMS reporting the departure on the 7th inst. of S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR to Taranto, where this lady is due to report on the 8th inst. Asked DDMS Boulogne for explanation as to why this lady did not proceed earlier, in view of the fact that orders were issued from this Office on the 28.8.18.

15.09.18
S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR: Received memo from DGMS asking for an explanation as to why orders contained in his wire of the 26th inst. with reference to the transfer of S/Nurse B. Wollman, QAIMNSR, to Taranto were not complied with before the 7th instant. Replied that this office did not know till the 7th instant that the instructions issued to Boulogne on 28.8.18 had not been carried out, and forwarded correspondence from DDMS Boulogne stating that delay was caused by misunderstanding, as it was thought that Miss Wollman was to leave Boulogne on the 8th instant.

Regards,

Alf McM
 

[ZeZe]

Hi Alf,

Thanks for the additional names and info on Miss Beatrice Wollman.

Hay – not identified

Constance O’Shea (Mrs Munden) WO 399/6049; 19.10.16 to 30.10.16; to England sick 03.11.16.

Sarah Flanagan WO 399/2755; only one day 30.10.16. to 01.11.16.

*   *   *

Re. Dressers – it’s hard to know the true rank without seeing a I.M.S. scale of pay rates. Was a Dresser on an I.M.S. Hospital Ship paid as much as an R.A.M.C. Lieutenant? I doubt it.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/british-army-rates-pay-1914/

Up to 16th December 1914 paying the personnel of H.M.H.S. Glegorm Castle lay with the India Office. It appears the medical staff had not been paid and this was part of Lt-Col. Prall’s frustration with the bureaucracy. Presumably his statement ‘the War Office had taken over ships’ meant the India Office no longer had the responsibility of financing the ship.

Regards ZeZe

Edited 29 May , 2023 by ZeZe

[frev]

22 hours ago, ZeZe said:

Photo of the staff of Gascon, https://www.illawarraremembers.com.au/node/90 The note states ‘Clementina Marshall back row centre, previously Sydney hospital, Matron Woolley British army seated middle row, Christine Dickson and nurse Porter seated bottom row, Australian doctors and surgeons Syme, Colonel Major surgeon Illias left centre, Dr. surgeon Fiaschi’.

I cannot identify Christine Dickson – any ideas?

Hi ZeZe

I also came across the name of Christine Dickson in S. De Vries book Australian Heroines of WW1 - and after endless research came to the conclusion that it was an error.

She noted that the photo was taken by Muriel Wakeford (which is held by her nephew) and there were no names with the photo.  However, she's actually in it.

Apart from the Imperial Matron Susan Winifred WOOLER - the Gascon was only staffed with AANS nurses during 1915, and there was no Christine Dickson in the AANS. 

From my files:
 

AANS Nurses:

 

Embarked Alexandria 17/4/1915:

*DURHAM, Sophie Hill – 17/4/1915 to 2/9/1915

*PETERS, Ethel Alice – 17/4/15 to 1/2/1916

*PORTER, Katherine Minnie – 17/4/1915 to 2/9/1915 (married DONALDSON)

 

Embarked Mudros Harbour (from HS Sicilia) 23/4/1915:

*GIBSON, Elsie Maud – 23/4/1915 to 1/2/1916

*MARSHALL, Clementina Hay – 23/4/1915 to 2/9/1915

*TUCKER, Ella Jane – 23/4/1915 to 1/2/1916

*WAKEFORD, Muriel Leontine – 23/4/1915 to 2/9/1915

 

Embarked Alexandria 8/6/1915:

*KITCHEN, Alice Elizabeth Barrett – 8/6/1915 to 12/12/1915

*SAMSING, Hilda Theresa Redderwold – 8/6/1915 to 12/12/1915

 

Embarked Alexandria 3/9/1915 [4 nurses, replacing DURHAM, PORTER, MARSHALL & WAKEFORD]:

*FRATER, Penelope – 3/9/1915 to 20/1/1916

*KELLETT, Adelaide Maud – 3/9/1915 to 22/1/1916

*TWYNAM, Alice Joan – 3/9/1915 to 1/2/1916

*WALKER, Jean Nellie Miles – 3/9/1915 to 12/12/1915

Cheers, Frev

Edited 30 May , 2023 by frev
correction

[alf mcm]

ZeZe,

  I think you have mis-read the MIC's for Thomas PATTERSON and Charles Hugh Colclough BYRNE. Both men were Dressers with the I.M.S., and my guess is that they were medical students who had almost completed their studies. Charles Byrne qualified as a doctor in 1915 and therefore was commissioned in the R.A.M.C. I think Thomas PATTERSON was similar, but I can't pin him down.

  I would suggest that both men only served on Glengorm Castle whilst they were Dressers.

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 30 May , 2023 by alf mcm

[ZeZe]

Hi Alf,

I would agree both were Dressers when serving on Glengorm Castle. I left the (Captain R.A.M.C.) in brackets to illustrate their later rank.

On 20/09/2008 at 07:49, Doc2 said:

Yes, I believe a "dresser" would have been what today is called a medical orderly or nursing assistant

On 21/09/2008 at 23:07, John Gilinsky said:

Google "sick berth attendant" and you should get an idea of what "dressers" did officially at least.

I thought these previous posts underplayed the role. I.M.S. Dessers on hospital ships appeared to me to have much higher medical qualifications.

Regards ZeZe

Edited 30 May , 2023 by ZeZe

[alf mcm]

ZeZe,

I seem to have misunderstood what you meant by showing Dresser with RAMC rank.

 

The following is from a post entitled 'Surgeon Probationers', started by AndrewP on 12th April 2005, and posted by horatio2 on 1st August 2021. I am not sure how to link properly to another subject.

 

A good find, MB, which helps to clarify things.

Interestingly, in the previous page 317 of the British Medical Journal of 8 Aug 1914, the full article is headed:-

"Call for Temporary Surgeons and Surgeon Probationers (Student-Dressers).

Surgeons for temporary service in the Royal navy are required. Surgeon Probationers in the Royal [Naval] Volunteer Reserve – that is to say senior students to act as dressers – are also required."   https://www.bmj.com/content/2/2797/317

I have located very few naval MOs identified as 'dressers', the medal rolls providing the source:-

The Admiralty 1914 Star Roll includes six civilian ‘dressers’, (some noted as 'Mr') serving with 1^st British Field Hospital, Belgium.

1 – later Captain RAMC

2 – later Ty Surg Lt George William FINDLAY MB RN (Sen 22 Dec 1915))

3 – later Ty Surg Lt William H SARRA RN (Sen 26 Aug 1916)

4 – later Lt RFC

5 – later Captain RAMC

6 – later Captain RAMC

Also found (missing from 1914 Star Roll) –

7 – Ty Surg Prob David John ADAMS-LEWIS RNVR (Sen 30 Jun 1915). Served as a Dresser, British Red Cross Unit No.5, Boulogne, Nov 1914. Later Captain RAMC

8 – Ty Surg Lt  Frederick George Edward HILL MB RN (Sen 12 Jul 1916). Served as a Dresser, British Red Cross Unit No.7 Boulogne, Nov 1914.

I suppose it is possible that the 'non-commissioned' intake that we have been discussing are those medical students who did not quite meet the exam status for Ty Proby Surg and were hired as civilian dressers.

 

Although the above refers to naval surgeons, perhaps it was thought that 'Dresser' would be a suitable title on military Hospital ships.

Regards,

Alf McM

Edited 31 May , 2023 by alf mcm

[ZeZe]

Hi Alf,

Thanks for the link. The notice / application form in the BMJ with all the regulations and rates of pay etc explains a lot, especially the ‘senior student’ part.

(incidently, for BMJ I find the National Library of Medicine (USA) site best when viewing articles in full: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/journals/182/ )

Regards ZeZe

[alf mcm]

ZeZe,

  The link for the BMJ is good.

  I noticed Helion are to publish this book later this year. Looks interesting.

The Fight for Life | Military History Book | Helion & Company

Regards,

Alf McM

 

[seaJane]

On 02/06/2023 at 10:16, alf mcm said:

I noticed Helion are to publish this book later this year. Looks interesting.

The Fight for Life | Military History Book | Helion & Company

Regards,

Alf McM

 

That does indeed look interesting! I hope they've looked at Arthur Gaskell's work .

sJ