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Remembered Today:

Rosenberg Chateau Military Cemetery and Extension


Brett
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I have the following postcard photograph which I have researched and believe must have been taken in the old Rosenberg/Rosenburg Chateau Military Cemetery and Extension (see discussion here). The graves here were exhumed and removed to Berks Cemetery Extension in 1930.

edpye03.jpg

I'm wondering whether anyone has any old photographs or images of the Rosenberg/Rosenburg Chateau Military Cemetery and Extension, please, so that I can compare it, and perhaps provide some further context to my story.

Regards and best wishes,

Brett Payne

Tauranga, New Zealand

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Hi Brett

Tony Spagnoly wrote an article about Rosenberg Chateau in a very early Stand To! and used an IWM photo of the Chateau but there are no graves visible in the photo. It might be worth your while contacting the IWM

http://collections.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.694

The image number is Q56165, they may have some others in that series? Forum member Sabine72 has an extensive postcard collection- maybe worth dropping her a PM too?

Cheers, Michelle

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Hi Brett,

the photo that Michelle mentions is also to be found in

"A walk round Plugstreet" by Spagnoly and Smith, page 71.

But alas no graves are visible.

Regards

KOYLI

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Brett,

I 'm sorry but I' don't have any postcards of rozenberg chateau but I might be able to find you one, I have a friend in warneton historical club, I'll ask him next week.

Could it be that we had contact before on a soldier buried at potijze chateau ground?

kind regards

sabine

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Dear Michelle and KOYLI - Thanks very much for your advice, which I will bear in mind.

Thanks Sabine. If you can find a postcard or other image, I would be very grateful for a scan.

Regards and best wishes, Brett

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  • 3 weeks later...

Brett,

My friend found someone who has a picture, so it could arrive every day by email will sent it to you as soon it arrives

kind regards

sabine

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Dear Sabine, Thank you so very much for persevering with this for me. Apologies for the delay in my reply as I have been on holiday. I look forward to hearing from you again when you receive an image. Regards and best wishes, Brett

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Brett

here it is,

kind regards

sabine

post-13594-1223404540.jpg

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  • 2 years later...

I am reviving this thread in the hope that someone can give me the exact location of the former Rosenburg Chateau Military Cemetery. The chateau is 50°44'37.72"N, 2°52'9.08"E.

Thanks

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if you drive from messines to ploegsteert, on top of the hill there are still a few bricks to see, acces next to the house

sabine

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Thank you Sabine

Can anyone give me coordinates I could put into Google Earth?

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Simon,

I saw your posting # 10 yesterday, and didn't know what to think of it. I don't understand the problem. So you do have the co-ordinates ?

Well, I don't have Google Earth myself, but when I enter your co-ordinates in my Google Maps, this is what I get and what I want ...

(Sorry, feeling a little bit stupid while writing this, for sure I must be misunderstanding the problem ?)

Aurel

post-92-0-80922600-1306576431.jpg

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Simon,

I think I understand.

Using a ruler and a map I would say :

approx. (!) 320 meters east of Rosenbergstraat

approx. (!) 270 meters south of Nachtegaalstraat

approx. (!) 350 meters north of Kleine Brugstraat

Aurel

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Aurel

Sorry if I didn’t express myself very clearly. I would like to know where the cemetery was exactly. I know where the chateau was but where was the cemetery in relation to the chateau? Was it close to the chateau? Can you see the outline of the cemetery boundary on Google Earth? Is it possible to see the site of the cemetery without entering private land, i.e. from the road?

Thanks

Simon

5767361117_042d7c7789_b.jpg

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Simon,

When I wrote "feeling a little stupid..." I had reason to do that, now I see, after rereading your posting a second time. Apologies ...

In T. Spagnoly and T. Smith, A Walk Around Plugstreet, p. 65 the text writes about the former cemetery, the removal, also with a map. If the map is accurate, then you can see where the burial site was, 'projected' on your Google Earth photo I post below, marked with :

1. Rosenberg Chateau

2. Site of the original Rosenberg Chateau

3. Underhill Farm

4. Underhill Farm Cemetery

5. Red Lodge

6. Original site of Rosenberg Chateau Burial Plot

I cannot guarantee that my 'projection' is 100% accurate, but I did my best.

So it looks like there are trees now surrounding where the original burial plot was.

Aurel

P.S. Let me also add that it looks like the postcard Sabine posted a while ago, is not correct. That Chateau is Chateau the la Hutte, which was on the same hill, but approx. 1 km more east. (Sorry, Sabine ...)

In T. Spagnoly & T. SMith's book there are pics of the Rosenberg Chateau. (Before the war, and in ruins.) Smaller than Chateau de la Hutte, and with a square tower.

post-92-0-45007600-1306604918.jpg

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Aurel

Thank you, that is wonderful! I too was confused about the Chateau de la Hutte and Rosenberg and thought they were the same!

Simon

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Simon,

At last I found back the article in my Flemish WFA magazine Shrapnel, June 2000. It contains a sketch of (before) 1921, in the correspondence between the chateau owner and the authorities related to the removal of the cemeteries.

The extract I am posting here is of your (and mine) satellite pic, the area marked as 6.

In fact these are 3 cemeteries.

These are the co-ordinates mentioned on the sketch.

1. (I quote) Rosemberg Château Military Cimetary SH.28.T.d.35.65

2. T.18.d.13.6 1/2 (personally I think the 13 should be 33)

Mind you this N°2 is not the extension yet. Same cemetery as 1, but "split" from it by a path leading north to the "Ferme Debailleul".

3. Rosemberg Chateau Brisitish Cimetary Extension SH.28.T.18.30.75 (I see the d was forgotten)

Between 2 and 3 (= the Extension) there was (is ?) a "petit bois" (small wood).

The south side of the 3 cemeteries was the road "vers Château". So ... every time the chateau owner left the main road (now Kleine Brugstraat) entering his property and going to his chateau, he had to face the "unpleasant" sight of the cemeteries....

Hope this is useful.

Aurel

post-92-0-49289200-1306661150.jpg

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Many thanks again Aurel. I will plot these with Linesman.

Simon

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  • 3 years later...

Hi all,

I'm reviving this thread because of a very particular question.

Lewis Henry Shapter, the brother of the Perwijze Madonna Elsie Knocker, was killed 31 Jan 1915 in Fleurbaix, most probably by a sniper.

According to Diane Atkinson, in her book about Elsie Knocker and Mairi Chisholm, he was first buried in Rosenberg Chateau cemetery. He now lays in Y-Farm cemetery, in Bois Grenier.

Knowing very well that cemeteries could change and bodies moved from one to another over time, upon reorganization and with influence from the advancing battlefield, I nevertheless wonder about the distances: killed in Fleurbaix ; buried in Ploegsteert ; re-buried in Bois-Grenier.

does anybody have an explanation for this??

Marilyne

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Hello Marilyne,

The CWGC documentation doesn't support that. It shows his body was exhumed from 36.H.33.d.1.6, which is on the Rue des Bassier, close to Croix Blanche and about 1500m South of Fleurbaix.

Probably this cemetery:

CROIX-BLANCHE BRITISH CEMETERY, FLEURBAIX (Pas-de-Calais), in a garden by the road leading South-East from Croix-Blanche. It was begun by the 2nd Yorks and the 1st Grenadier Guards, and used from November 1914 to July 1916; it contained the graves of 36 soldiers from the United Kingdom.

Phil

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Thanks, Phil...

someone - maybe me - has their notes wrong. I'll cross-check one last time tonight with the book...

MM.

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MM

I was looking at the same CWGC concentration record for Shapter but as usual could not get the trench map converter to work (operator error). I was getting a location in mid Atlantic. Excellent work Phil.

Pete.

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