Hambo Posted 30 August , 2008 Share Posted 30 August , 2008 Myself and another brave soul have been researching the King's achool Canterbury memorial and altough this man is listed we have long accepted the fact that he is not commemorated on CWGC on the basis that he died of cancer and had probably been discharged after he was wounded in August 1917. That was before we got hold of his death certificate which gives his occupation as a Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers and gives the cause of death as cancer and complications of wounds receive while campaigning. My parner in crime is off next week to find a phtograph of his grave as we found the reference to where he is buried in De Ruvigny's where he has an entry and a photograpj Neither of us have come across a possible non comm before and wondered what the procedure is. I assume the death certificate is not enough in itself as that would be too easy! I'm sure you're bored to death laying out what is required Terry, but I really think we might have one here so hoe you don't mind one more time Many thanks John Baily Stuart Underwood Lieutenant 490th (Home Counties) Field Company, Royal Engineers Died on the 15th of September 1918 He was born on the 17th of May 1886 the eldest son of Cornwall Stuart Baily a solicitor and Marion (nee Underwood) Baily of 6 Dane Road, St Leonards in Kent. He was educated at the King’s School Canterbury from 1901 to 1913 after which he went to Glasgow to study Locomotive engineering from 1904 to 1910. Later in 1910 he went to Canada to work on the Grand Trunk Railway in Montreal. In 1914 he returned to the UK and he joined the Hastings contingent of the Royal Sussex Regiment and on the 2nd of March 1915 he was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 8th Battalion Middlesex Regiment. He landed in France with his battalion on the 9th of March. On the 21st of June 1915 the battalion was transferred to 25th Brigade 8th Division and he transferred to 490 (Home Counties) Field Company of the Royal Engineers arriving in France in July. They saw action at Bois Grenier near Armentieres on the 25th of September 1915. By June 1916 they were at Mazingarbe south of Bethune before moving to Albert in July where they were involved in the first day of the fighting on the Somme. By October 29th the company was at Longueval for the attack on Le Transloy. They remained in the Somme region until June 1917 when they moved to the Ypres area. He was promoted to Lieutenant on the 1st of July 1917 and later that month he received a GOC certificate for gallant conduct and coolness under fire for laying track east of Ypres whilst under heavy fire during operations on the 31st of July and the 1st of August 1917. It was while he was at Dominion Camp near Ypres that he was severely wounded during an enemy aerial bombardment on the 11th of August 1917 and was evacuated to the UK where he died from cancer at St Leonards on Sea. His Sergeant Major wrote:- “We are all very sorry to hear about Lieutenant Baily. He was one of the finest officers, a born leader and one to inspire confidence in all under him; he is of the type that can sorely be spared.” He is buried in Fairlight Churchyard at Hastings in Sussex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 August , 2008 Share Posted 30 August , 2008 Hambo If it helps one more in from the cold, I am happy to relate the requirements over and over again! Firstly, you should establish if he had been discharged at his date of death (or retired/resigned etc as he was an officer). If he was still in service, he will qualify no matter what the cause of death or where it took place. The majority of officer records survive at Kew and so you have a good chance of discovering this. If he was no longer in service, you will have to prove that his death was due to a cause related to his service during the qualifying period. If his death certificate includes comment that death was (albeit in part) due to wounds, then the case looks quite strong. I would get his records and take it from there. If you do get these, let me know and we can put the case forward for you. I know Fairlight Churchyard quite well. If the case does go forward, a photo of the grave would be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambo Posted 30 August , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2008 Terry Many thanks for your help and comments. We'll get on the case right away and will be in touch as soon as we have anything either way All the best John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 31 August , 2008 Share Posted 31 August , 2008 Hambo, I was very kindly sent photographs of Kings School Memorial in Canterbury last year by someone. I'm now a third of the way through transcribing it! I wasn't aware of anyone else doing it although I was in touch with someone briefly a while ago who stated a keen interest. Glad to register your interest in it too. This memorial seems to have been neglected a bit in recent years which is surprising given the history of the thing and the fact so many fallen officers (old boys) names are recorded by the school. In 2006 I was given a copy of someone elses work in the 1950's. If you want a copy I'm happy to forward it onwards... I have no wish to duplicate other peoples work so until I hear otherwise I shall butt out completely and start something else - hundreds more to do in Kent so I'm not bothered at all. I have this chaps name on my to do list for potential non-comms (list of 54 possibles). If you want to do it then thats just fine by me, providing he gets a commemoration I don't care who does it. I'm very glad to see an interest in this Canterbury civic school memorial. We have transcribed a few other Canterbury war memorials which you may like to see including the large and very complex (extremely difficult to transcribe) Buffs Boer War tribute in Dane John Gardens - http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Kent/CanterburyBoer.html I have already made a start on Canterbury's city civic memorial outside the Cathdredral too. At the moment only photos are posted on the website - http://www.kentfallen.com/PDF%20REPORTS/CA...BURY%20CITY.pdf In fact I'm a former "old boy" of King's myself (1975)! I'm also intending to transcribe King's Rochester one day too (photos on the website). Wishing you all the very best Neil (and Dave Hughes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambo Posted 1 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 1 September , 2008 Neil and Dave I had two daughters at the school, one went back tonight the other is off to Dublin to university so thats my connection. I started to put some stuff together about two years ago and sent in what I had to the archivist who got excited as archivists tend to do when some one else shows and interest! It turned out that there was an OKS who had been putting something together for some time and has visited and photographed nearly all the graves of the boys (he's off to East Africa next month to do the two or three out there) as well as finding an OKS serving in Iraq to do the Basra Memorial He has gathered all the info from the school records and the obits from the Canturian and I was able to add mush of the information from regimental and battalion histories, war diaries, Gazette etc with no little help from the usual suspects on this wonderful forum We are probably about six months away from completion (if you ever complete a project like this!) but have now made a rod for our own back by deciding to add WW2. This is, as you know, quite a large number of extra stories to compile but I'd like to think it's no more than a year away as that's when second daughter leaves which gives me a personal deadline although I have a number of other memorial projects on the go. The school archivist seems quite keen to publish, personally I'm not too worried either way and if we go the internet route than your website seems to be the natural home for it all As for Baily, Edward Holman (the OKS) is off this week to photgraph the grave as Terry suggested and we already have a copy of the death certificate. I will be trkking to the NA once I've established whether or not his file is there. If it is I should be able to get there this month and report back to Terry. I will of course report back with the results here I will be at the remembrance service at King's on the 9th of November partly as its my last one as a parent but also because thay have such a moving service with all the pupils walking past dropping thier poppies on the memorial, quite a sight so if you're there let me know All the very best John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 John, It sounds as though you are far more advanced than us therefore we will gladly butt out completely and do something else. We wish you well with your work. You will see that we have plenty to be getting on with in Kent... Once you work is complete I would very much like to see it (In confidence). If ever you want to use kentfallen as a platform for your work or to market/advertise it's existance then just Email me. With regard to UNDERWOOD B.S, please let me know if you want me to leave this alone too? At the present time I have his name in a long list of potential non-coms. If you prefer to do it then thats fine by me. If you would prefer to get on with other matters then I will be happy to add him to my next batch for the MoD. As I have stated above, I'm not fussed who does it providing he gets the tribute he deserves. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 No sqabbling please so long as we get another lad in from the cold Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 1 September , 2008 Share Posted 1 September , 2008 Amen to that Chris... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambo Posted 2 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2008 Neil I'd very much like to take you up on the offer of the work done in the 1950s as some of the survivors were still around then and it may just give us a little we haven't got to date. I will PM address email etc for when you get the time. You might be interested in what we have to date so send me a PM too and I'll mail you the paper version of what we have as the email seems to struggle sending the document now due to it's size. I still have about a dozen photos to add to it which I will do before I send it. I'm happy to share all we have found but there doesn't seem much point in duplicating the effort and I will keep you posted on progress As for Baily (you said Underwood but I assume you meant Baily) I am hoping to get up to the NA Saturday week to try to get hold of the file. As I said, I will of course report back here but please don't cross him off your list in case for whatever reason I can't get the info. By the way if no one is doing the men of Crockham Hill which is my nearest Kent Village, be happy to do it for you All the very best John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 As for Baily (you said Underwood but I assume you meant Baily) I am hoping to get up to the NA Saturday week to try to get hold of the file. John - I did look Baily up under WO339 and WO374 for you yesterday and cant see his service file ... http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/search.asp Also I had a look for your grandfather's aero-certificate on Ancestry and drew a blank there too. Sorry! Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hambo Posted 2 September , 2008 Author Share Posted 2 September , 2008 Jonathan Thanks for that. I tried the same thing and also drew a blank. Thanks for looking for the aero cert too Terry I suppose the death certificate is not going to be enough on it's own? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 2 September , 2008 Share Posted 2 September , 2008 Hambo, If the D.C shows that he was a serving officer when he died then that carrys some weight. Obviously it is better to submit as much background as possible together with a supporting letter setting out the reasons why you think this officer qualifies for commemoration. Have you searched the local newspapers for reports on his death? You could also look at the local parish church records to see if they hold anything of help to you? The idea is to prove your case "ON THE BALANCE OF PROBABILITY" test. Not "beyond reasonable doubt" which some people seem to think is applied (this test is only applied to criminal matters). Chris Harley may be able to look at the TIMES newspaper archives for you in case his death was reported there? A good photo of the war memorial showing name is also helpful although on it's own it's useless. The idea is to put together as convincing case as you can. If you can't take this forward then my offer still stands... I have aborted all work on Kings Canterbury. Good luck... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 Any update on this case? If not then I will gladly scoop it up and place it in my next batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisharley9 Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 Times 18 Sep 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 13 November , 2008 Share Posted 13 November , 2008 Thanks Chris, You are a star With luck John (Hambo) will see this thread and be able to provide an update if not then I will scoop it up. NOT ONE WILL SLIP THROUGH OUR NET eh? How many old threads like this one need reviewing to make sure someone submitted the case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 14 November , 2008 Share Posted 14 November , 2008 ..................... Terry I suppose the death certificate is not going to be enough on it's own? John, Like Neil says, if his DC says he was a Lieutenant in the Royal Engineers then that will constitute proof that he was still in service at the time of his death - for some reason they didn't seem to get round to discharging officers as quickly as they did the enlisted men. Terry has one of my non-coms at the moment; he has been accepted by the MoD and Terry is just waiting for the CWGC to confirm his place of burial and add him to the database. He too was an officer who died in the UK after a long illness (T.B.) and the only evidence that I formally submitted in support of the claim was his DC which clearly states he was a Lieutenant in the King's Own. Best wishes. Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 14 November , 2008 Share Posted 14 November , 2008 The DC is all that is required in the absence of any other documentation PROVIDED it shows membership of a Commonwealth military unit. This is no problem with a UK overseas certificate as it bears all the required info. It can be not quite so straightforward with a English/Scottish/Irish domestic DC as they do not always give such details - though the majority do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Clark Posted 14 November , 2008 Share Posted 14 November , 2008 Often the DC is the only official document available if the man's service/pension records were lost. Although I think you are all well aware of my own personal feeling regarding the reliability of these things. There were some crap doctors then as there are now! I just wish that the service authorities attached more weight to the fact a name appears on a civic war memorial. I know that these things contain errors but the fact a name is recorded is pretty good evidence that the trustees looked into the circumstances and found in favour of the man. I just wish WE didn't all make matters worse by treating the DC as the final word and the most reliable official document. No wonder the service authorities treat it with reverance, we allow it to happen... If I don't hear from John by Monday I will scoop it up and place it in my next batch of 10 men (which is nearly ready). He is after all a KENT man and his name does appear on a civic war memorial here which is my chosen specialist subject . I have no wish to tread on John's toes either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 18 April , 2011 Share Posted 18 April , 2011 In from the cold: http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=75228269 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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