Well done Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge

[Wigwhammer]

An interesting thread as I, too, have seen how well the VdK work.

When I was stil married we wanted to find out whether my ex's father had a known grave. He fell on the Baltic front during the final Soviet advance and we only had a letter written by a comrade to his wife, my ex's mother. He gave the usual instantaneous cause of death (bullet in the head) and mentioned that it had not been possible to recover the body due to enemy activity. He also gave a location which it had not been possible for us to trace using modern maps, encyclopaedias etc. (this was ante-internet).

The VdK could only confirm that he has no known grave, but did give a fairly detailed summary of what was going on in that area at that time and even sent an extract of a contemporary map in which the location mentioned in the letter is marked and named - apparently a hamlet that was totally obliterated and never re-inhabited.

They really do some very good work.

Cheers

Colin

[egbert]

....and each day is a surprise day: today I got written confirmation from VdK that they have officially requested to relocate all 78 German WW1 and WW2 graves to a VdK-maintained concentration cemetery in Romania.

And I received 2 more pleasant surprises from VdK.

1. The grave of my uncle is not lost! He rests in section A, row 13, grave 7.

So that means although the grave headstones are all withered beyond individual recognition/identification, my uncle is not lost but can be exhumed and properly reburied as all the other soldiers.

2. I got an email address of a surviving family member , whose grandfather sit in the same JU 52 that crashed nearby Orsova in Toplet with my uncle. Her Grandfather and my uncle are buried only 6 graves apart. The VdK said she has valuable information about the crash and the exact location in the mountains. Fingers crossed she is a wealth of information.....

But anyway I am very grateful for the actions of VdK to secure the graves and possible relocation to a well maintained and cared for war cemetery.

[trajan]

Trajan, with respect to your word "sympathetic"---well. I had a very long conversation with a VdK official about Romania. He explained about the difficulties with Romanian authorities to work all the unsolved WW2 issues like relocating etc. An officially signed agreement on the work of the VdK has been signed only some time ago. Despite the agreement, the Romanian authorities, he said, are not always - let me say- co-operating with the VdK as expected.

I think the Romanians have a too lax attitude towards remembrance. Considering the case of Orsova war cemetery, where also Romanian nationals are buried, they seem to not care at all about their own dead. Their graves look as desolate as the other foreign national graves under their care.

"The character of a nation can be recognized by how it treats its dead ( Raymond Aron )."

....and each day is a surprise day: today I got written confirmation from VdK that they have officially requested to relocate all 78 German WW1 and WW2 graves to a VdK-maintained concentration cemetery in Romania.

And I received 2 more pleasant surprises from VdK.

1. The grave of my uncle is not lost! He rests in section A, row 13, grave 7.

So that means although the grave headstones are all withered beyond individual recognition/identification, my uncle is not lost but can be exhumed and properly reburied as all the other soldiers.

2. I got an email address of a surviving family member , whose grandfather sit in the same JU 52 that crashed nearby Orsova in Toplet with my uncle. Her Grandfather and my uncle are buried only 6 graves apart. The VdK said she has valuable information about the crash and the exact location in the mountains. Fingers crossed she is a wealth of information.....

But anyway I am very grateful for the actions of VdK to secure the graves and possible relocation to a well maintained and cared for war cemetery.

On the first point, about lack of sympathy, well, having oft-times worked in Romania I know that many Romanians of our and of younger generations are still somewhat conflicted on the issue of remembering the dead of WW2 from all sides - not helped by the changing alliances and so the fortunes of the Romanian people 'twixt 1939-1945-1990. In fact, my experience was that there was more attention shown to the graves of those involved in the internecine 'warfare' of WW2 between Hungarians and Romanians than from other periods. And yet, after Chancellor Schroeder's visit to his father's grave there did seem to me to be a slight change in attitude - a recognition of the need for greater respect. And so we come to the second point, and the better news you have received today!

[seaforths]

....and each day is a surprise day: today I got written confirmation from VdK that they have officially requested to relocate all 78 German WW1 and WW2 graves to a VdK-maintained concentration cemetery in Romania.

And I received 2 more pleasant surprises from VdK.

1. The grave of my uncle is not lost! He rests in section A, row 13, grave 7.

So that means although the grave headstones are all withered beyond individual recognition/identification, my uncle is not lost but can be exhumed and properly reburied as all the other soldiers.

2. I got an email address of a surviving family member , whose grandfather sit in the same JU 52 that crashed nearby Orsova in Toplet with my uncle. Her Grandfather and my uncle are buried only 6 graves apart. The VdK said she has valuable information about the crash and the exact location in the mountains. Fingers crossed she is a wealth of information.....

But anyway I am very grateful for the actions of VdK to secure the graves and possible relocation to a well maintained and cared for war cemetery.

That is brilliant news! It never ceases to amaze me that sometimes after constant searching and long periods of nothing, that things can suddenly turn up from unexpected places. I do think that if you stop looking, you stop finding and even if you get long periods of finding nothing and it is tempting to give up...it makes the surprise of something new emerging even more special as you know you didn't waste your time after all - you stuck with it!

Edit; typo

[nigelcave]

A very interesting thread involving a country about whose involvement in the Great War I know all too little; whilst the family aspect of the story is inspiring. I look forward to hearing how things develop as regards the new burial site and refurbished/new headstones.

[warbuff1]

Excellent news! Keep us all updated as i'm sure you will on what is a very interesting part of family history. And of course a massive well done to the VDK

Wayne

[egbert]

As I said no day without news. This time not about VdK but w/r to my uncle buried in Orsova.

By contacting an aviation forum and their "inherent" buffs, I know as of today that indeed within 3 weeks two same version Ju52's crashed in the same area 9km n/w of Toplet, one 16.4.44., the one with my uncle 10.5.44. What a coincidence! Also the plane with my uncle was not subject of fighter harassment but the pilot in command flew CFIT (controlled flight in terrain) during heavy fog. I could locate the location of the crash pretty much exact because the accident occurred at alt 1052 m. There is only one mountain/range that reaches that altitude.

Two different crashes:

1)

1944-04-16, 9./TG 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
Crew of 4 and 23 passengers were killed. All the names are known and you uncle in not among them.

2) with my uncle as passenger:

1944-05-10, Kurierstaffel/O.K.M., Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501326, PO+GO, Höhe 1051, 9 km nordnordwestlich Toplet bei Orsova, Absturz. Bruch 100 %.
Flugzeugführer Ofw Brunnhuber, Georg, +
Bordfunker Ofw Kunkel, Josef, +
Bordwart Uffz Striebing, Willi, verletzt
Uffz Striebing am 1944-05-20 seinen Verletzungen erlegen.

[Guest researcher111]

Egbert

I am posting herewith the Link to my info regarding your uncle, Ruddy Klemm was born and lived in Loerrach

Baden Wuertenberg then Geneva and Basel and finally worked at Basel Airport where he runned its own flying school , I shall

initiate contacts with his family and upon their concent I shall post the German notes on here .

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=40352&page=2

Irronically Ruddy died in a training flight accident with a student pilot at the controls who messed

up the take off at Blotzheim France not far from Basel Airport . Note the discrepancy between

the aircraft Werk Nr and details posted on here and by those mentioned on his notes .

I am certain that the German Embassy in Bucharest are alert about the situtation with the

cemetery in Orsova and yet I have tough time understanding on why your uncle's grave was

not reinterred in Bundesrepublik or at least in Bucharest given his prominance.

One thing which I don't understand is the previous accident involving pax of the JG54 crashing

a month earlier around the same location . The flight route over the area and further over Turnul Severin

would have taken them to Kriegsmarine Base Varna Bulagaria ,Kriegsmarine courier flights linking from

Mamaia and Constanza letting me conclude that they were using the same courier flights. What JG 54 had to do with

Kriegsmarine courier flights and this special route remains a mistery to me .

On March 44 the JG 54 was still in Ukraine ,the Kriegsmarine courier flights shuttled between Greece, Bulgaria and

Romania bases .

Alex K

[egbert]

Thanks Alex for posting. I have answered on your linked forum.

Also the 16.4.44 crash with personnel from JG 54 was NOT a Navy courier service plane. It was another unit, that of 9.Staffel Transportgeschwader 4. The only commons with that plane was the appr. location of the crash and the common burial site in Orsova. So all the other WW2 elements lets discuss in the other forum.

[egbert]

The static metamorphosis of Orsova cemetery, containing 78 German dead from WW1 and WW2.

"Static" and "metamorphosis" is that not the exact antipode? No it is not in the case of Orsova war cemetery.

Unbelievable but true. this is what I have just learned from witnesses, both German and ex-local Romanian:

The Orsova war cemetery was relocated to higher grounds in 1967 due to the build of a Danube River dam that flooded the old cemetery grounds.

After reburying the dead some 2 km uphill, all new headstones made of concrete were erected . When a friend visited the cemetery last year, the name inscriptions were all thought to be withered away as explained earlier in this thread.

Wrong - the Romanians and Russians have erected the new headstones without any etchings from the very beginning.

In July 1975 the VdK reported from their May visit to Orsova. In situ PoC was the 1st secretary of the local communist authorities. The report says that the VdK is without any might, with no influence , no information on graves, helpless to change the situation there. When they discovered the headstones , non etched, the party secretary promised them that the German names will be etched very soon and that they will maintain the cemetery well.

7.5.1998: the VdK reports that they still have no feed-back nor any other information from the Romanian authorities whether the headstones have been etched with the name and dates of the dead. They convey confidence that the brand-new agreement on status and care of German war graves in Romania will bring a more favorable situation in the future.

November 2014; my friend visits the cemetery and does not find the grave of my uncle, due to supposed withering as no inscriptions are recognizable.

Well by now we understand: the Romanian authorities, both, communist and pseudo-democratic, up to today never fulfilled their earlier promises nor observed the government agreement on the status of war dead.

My Romanian-German contact who lived near Orsova and visits relatives there every other year shall know better and asked me what to expect. Still today everybody is totally corrupt and unreliable in Orsova and elsewhere in the government-he says.

I hope the VdK manages to get the permission to relocate the German buried from Orsova to a VdK maintained cemetery soon. The request according to the gevernment agreement on status of German war graves in Romania has been launched January 2015. With all the corruption and disinterest in Romania I have to cross fingers......

BTW if anyone is interested in the latest development on the fate of my uncle's deadly plane crash near Orsova, please have a look here

"The character of a nation can be recognized by how it treats its dead ( Raymond Aron )."

[egbert]

The Vdk has contacted me again about their efforts of relocating ALL German dead from WWI and II, currently buried and neglected in Orsova. They say "No news from the Romanian authorities yet". I say "Corruption and disinterest prevails….."

But some news from my own research efforts regarding my uncle who is buried in Orsova.

I got in contact with a chap who actually knows my uncle and who served under my uncle as a U-boat seafarer during the time the crash near Orsova occurred. He is 92 years old by now but very alert and knows/remembers every detail as if it was yesterday. He has a huge archive and even read original letters from my uncle, his commander in 1944, as well as letters from my aunt regarding the tons of material about my uncle, picture albums and documents. He is the only trustworthy chap amongst all the sharks and I enjoyed the hours of telephone talks

Through this source I could locate another chap who admitted in an email that he received an original 100 picture album about my uncle's U-boat experience for reproduction purpose. Sadly my aunt gave it away for this purpose and died. When I asked him whether I may get reproductions from the original he suddenly shut off, said he does not have the original album anymore, cannot help, but referred to another chap who got all the medals, to include the Knight’s Cross, and original photos in albums from my aunt.

This last source seems to be a correct collector who shares all his infos with me. The contact is ongoing. This chap also told me how collectors visited my aunt’s home and who indeed stole documents and such during their visits in my aunt’s home. My aunt was a lonely living widow.

Another source told me that one of these scumbags has sold again and again reproduced images from Helmut Rosenbaum’s albums as originals through eb@y

It is so unbelievable how naive my aunt was by giving away her husband’s documents only because she believed in the integrity of people who promised to archive and care for the possessions. The whole treasure chest is ripped apart and strewn all over the world. Unbelievable but true.

[egbert]

Just had a lengthy telephone call with VdK responsible head of division Mr Görgl . It is confirmed that the application for reburial of the 70+ war graves from WW1 and 2 have been submitted to Romanian authorities. It will take some 1-2 years until (hopefully) permission is granted and concrete reburial works can start

[trajan]

...It is so unbelievable how naive my aunt was by giving away her husband’s documents only because she believed in the integrity of people who promised to archive and care for the possessions. ...

I was so sorry to read that: sad but true, there are lots of unscrupulous ba***rds out there.

Just had a lengthy telephone call with VdK responsible head of devision Mr Görgl . It is confirmed that the application for reburial of the 70+ war graves from WW1 and 2 have been submitted to Romanian authorities. It will take some 1-2 years until (hopefully) permission is granted and concrete reburial works can start

Slightly more encouraging news, but knowing Romania as I do, I'll keep my fingers crossed...

[roel22]

I hope all works out well, Egbert!

Roel

[ph0ebus]

The Vdk has contacted me again about their efforts of relocating ALL German dead from WWI and II, currently buried and neglected in Orsova. They say "No news from the Romanian authorities yet". I say "Corruption and disinterest prevails….."

But some news from my own research efforts regarding my uncle who is buried in Orsova.

I got in contact with a chap who actually knows my uncle and who served under my uncle as a U-boat seafarer during the time the crash near Orsova occurred. He is 92 years old by now but very alert and knows/remembers every detail as if it was yesterday. He has a huge archive and even read original letters from my uncle, his commander in 1944, as well as letters from my aunt regarding the tons of material about my uncle, picture albums and documents. He is the only trustworthy chap amongst all the sharks and I enjoyed the hours of telephone talks

Through this source I could locate another chap who admitted in an email that he received an original 100 picture album about my uncle's U-boat experience for reproduction purpose. Sadly my aunt gave it away for this purpose and died. When I asked him whether I may get reproductions from the original he suddenly shut off, said he does not have the original album anymore, cannot help, but referred to another chap who got all the medals, to include the Knight’s Cross, and original photos in albums from my aunt.

This last source seems to be a correct collector who shares all his infos with me. The contact is ongoing. This chap also told me how collectors visited my aunt’s home and who indeed stole documents and such during their visits in my aunt’s home. My aunt was a lonely living widow.

Another source told me that one of these scumbags has sold again and again reproduced images from Helmut Rosenbaum’s albums as originals through eb@y

It is so unbelievable how naive my aunt was by giving away her husband’s documents only because she believed in the integrity of people who promised to archive and care for the possessions. The whole treasure chest is ripped apart and strewn all over the world. Unbelievable but true.

This is very upsetting to hear! I hope that with time, at least some of what was taken is returned to your family, if not all of it.

-Daniel

[egbert]

On ‎22‎.‎06‎.‎2015 at 11:16, egbert said:

drivenThe Vdk has contacted me again about their efforts of relocating ALL German dead from WWI and II, currently buried and neglected in Orsova. They say "No news from the Romanian authorities yet". I say "Corruption and disinterest prevails….."

 

Today I received a phone call from a VdK official. The Romanian authorities, in this case the Romanian MoD, has rejected to relocate the rotten, deteriorated 78 German graves from WWI and II to a proper cared VdK -cemetery in Romania. No explanation came forward to the official Volksbund request for relocation on own German expenses. The 2 year old request seemed to sit idle at a corrupt MoD official's desk. Even the VdK is furious but what can you do with Romania being a "reliable" NATO country, whose veteran's and war grave affaires are handled within the MoD? Well the VdK has immediately launched a new request and consequently I have to wait another 2 years for a response to give the dead a decent and well cared place in a VdK concentration cemetery in central Romania. Unbelievable and only possible in the wild Eastern European hemisphere despite an existing MoU between Germany and Romania on the commonly agreed and mutual work of their war grave commissions, dated and signed 25/06/1996 . The ex-communist hardliners still seem to prevail....and the VdK driven by law and ethics of course is not paying the proper bribe to the Romanian MoD official.

 

 

[trajan]

I am really sorry to hear that Egbert. When travelling in the Eastern bloc countries in the 1980's I was aware of the absolute disrespect shown to the 'enemy' dead in many of them. After the re-discovery of Schroeder's father's grave I had hoped things would improve - and they seemed to be doing so...

 

Julian

[egbert]

STRIKING NEWS

 

 

As I am writing this post, the VdK is in situ at Orsova cemetery for probing the graves. This is to ensure the graves are existing according to the plot plan. it is the necessary prerequisite for possible later relocation to a cared cemetery.

The German graves have been relocated by the Romanians in the 70s due to the flooding of the old and original nearby Danube river military cemetery to higher grounds.

THEY REPORTED.........

 

The first grave probing right now at this minute shows that nothing, no bodies, are in the marked German graves that have been investigated right now.

 

A huge Romanian sting concerning the 78 German graves from WWI and II?

 

[egbert]

Update as of 13:00hrs

 

got a call from the team - they dug at and around several graves with no whatsoever finds all morning long. The VdK team still works on place ;  a suspicion that raises - the Romanian Red Cross  that turned over the individual plot plan with all 78 graves in the 1970s has created a fake plan with a so called propaganda grave site to show the German officials that everything has been cared of nicely. In the telephone call I learned that the VdK has several such examples of Romania and other Eastern countries falsifying official records to sham cared war graves ......

Team will continue until tomorrow.....

[AOK4]

I guess the graves can be found where they were originally. They probably just moved the headstones and not the actual remains...

 

Jan

[egbert]

19 hours ago, AOK4 said:

I guess the graves can be found where they were originally. They probably just moved the headstones and not the actual remains...

 

Jan

Jan, that's what I discussed yesterday per telephone with the VdK.

The most likely speculation is:

when the Danube River was dammed and the necessity of relocating the old cemetery to higher grounds in Orsova was imminent,  probably a group consisting of Romanian Red Cross officials, MoD officials. local authorities and builder/contractor, made big money in their own pocket from pretending to 1. excavate the bodies, 2. relocate them, 3.re-interring them and 4.erecting 78 new concrete steles without individual name inscriptions .

The whole mafia-operation was covered by official Romanian Red Cross plot layouts of the new cemetery with all 78 German names depicted, one concrete stele for each soldier, WW1 and WW2. These plot plans and individual name lists had been turned over to the VdK in the 70s. I received copies 2 years ago.

 

Yesterday somebody mentioned "the truth is only known by the soil"  - - - - - - I should add now "wet soil".

But-they are still digging today- will they find something? I asked to dig also around the pretend-to-be grave of Helmut Rosenbaum.

[egbert]

I wonder that nobody is interested in the German grave situation in Romania. At least I have lost a relative for sure.So to sum it up and to finalize the matter:

 

I was informed today about the final result : all German military Orsova graves are fakes.
The Volksbund team has done all the probe digs and nothing was found in the 78 graves from WW1 and WW2.

 

In early 1970 up to today the Romanians falsified all grave documents and with the help of mayor and associates, local priest, Romanian Red Cross, MoD created a  fake cemetery and betrayed the next of kin and German authorities.

 

All graves are lost forever and most likely still lie in the submerged old cemetery that is now sunken in the Danube River at Orsova and were never reburied to higher grounds as "documented".

 

Welcome to Romania!

 

P.S. All my thanks to Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge who followed my research and my advice to relocate the dead to a well VdK-cared concentration cemetery. They performed brilliantly in the last 2 days in Orsova- it was not meant to be.....

 

Helmut Rosenbaum's final resting place , now covered by 20m Danube River waters

[trajan]

I was so sad to learn of what has happened there, and as for what was done by the local authorities, well, I'll say nothing here to avoid treading on political grounds - except to observe that having worked in the country as an archaeologist I am not entirely surprised that there has been a massive scam. But there again, why on earth didn't somebody from the Volksbund supervise the work? 

 

Julian

[bierast]

I will be at Brasov (Kronstadt) in Romania on the weekend of 27th-28th August for a living history event commemorating the centenary of their entry into the war, and should have an opportunity to meet some influential individuals. Needless to say, I will be raising this matter when I do so.

[ph0ebus]

This is stunning.  And heartbreaking.  Given the time frames, I wonder if anyone who was involved in this is still around to be held accountable for their actions.  I wonder if, given the evidence of wrongdoing here, that the government could not (perhaps under duress) pay for an underwater archaeologist to locate the now submerged site and see what, if anything, can be still found there?