Pte Herbert Mattinson Lancs Fusiliers and Labour Corps

[Beau Geste]

Those of you who have looked at an earlier posting of mine "5th Bn KORL Regt" will know that I'm searching for information on two brothers Thomas Rawes Mattinson of the KORL Regt who was KIA on 9th August 1916 at Guillemont and his brother Herbert. According to the medal lists, Herbert Mattinson joined the Lancashire Fusiliers ( as Pte 15946 ) and then transferred into The Labour Corps as Pte 308509. According to the Long Long Trail, Herbert was initially posted with his battalion to a Division that never went overseas. I'm assuming therefore that he volunteered for service in France perhaps because his brother was serving there and he felt the need to "do his bit". We have letters from him "from the trenches" so he obviously found the action he was looking for.

Like his brother, Thomas, he was awarded the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. His descendants were of the opinion that both brothers died in the Great War but I have been unable to find any reference to Herbert's death on the CWGC website. I'd be grateful if a Pal would check the SDGW lists for me.

This Xmas car was among the "bits and pieces" that are currently in the family's possession.

[Adam Llewellyn]

Beau,

No reference to Herbert on SDGW. I have found with my men of Anstey that if they died after 1920 from the effects of the great war that they can be very difficult to find, even though they my be on a local memorial.

Regards. Llew.

[Beau Geste]

Beau,

No reference to Herbert on SDGW. I have found with my men of Anstey that if they died after 1920 from the effects of the great war that they can be very difficult to find, even though they my be on a local memorial.

Regards. Llew.

Thanks Llew,

Yes, I've been searching for information on Pte 20304 Richard Lofthouse of the 15th Bn The Welsh Regiment that would prove one way or another whether or not he was my grandfather. It's been like the proverbial "needle in a haystack. I don't know if the Great War accelerated his death: he collapsed and died in 1940 but whatever the reason, I've got my nose pressed up against a "brick wall".

I'm beginning to think that perhaps the surviving members of the Mattinson family are wrong and that Herbert was a survivor after all. I suppose its the BMD columns that will hold the key.

Harry

[ian turner]

Harry,

There is another medal card for 46145 South Lancs - a coincidental name or another part of the jigsaw-puzzle?

He may be shown in the original battalion of the Lancs Fus, but if that was a training battalion then he could well have been transferred to another battalion of the Lancs Fus when posted overseas, not necessarily a volunteer for active service. Perhaps a wounding downgraded him from front line service and placed him in the Labour Corps?

Indeed a trawl through BMD may be fruitful - I note that there was an infant death (0 yrs) of this name in 1919.

Ian

[Beau Geste]

Harry,

There is another medal card for 46145 South Lancs - a coincidental name or another part of the jigsaw-puzzle?

He may be shown in the original battalion of the Lancs Fus, but if that was a training battalion then he could well have been transferred to another battalion of the Lancs Fus when posted overseas, not necessarily a volunteer for active service. Perhaps a wounding downgraded him from front line service and placed him in the Labour Corps?

Indeed a trawl through BMD may be fruitful - I note that there was an infant death (0 yrs) of this name in 1919.

Ian

Thank you Ian.

Of course. I'm sure you're right. He might very well have transferred into another battalion of the LF and as you say been wounded and then ended up downgraded 'health-wise' and found himself in the Labour Corps. We have access to a box of memorabilia belonging to the Mattinson family - letters etc from him and his brother Thomas who died at Guillemont. Thomas was always hoping that they would meet up in France but it appears they never did. There is nothing that specifically states that Herbert spent a lot of time in the Lancashire Fusiliers but there are references to "being in the trenches" and for that reason, I think your suggestion is an excellent one.

46145 of the South Lancs is probably a coincidence I feel.

Best wishes,

Harry

[ian turner]

Harry,

Yes, I have seen on here many cases where the medals or CWGC info reflect a home based garrison or training battalion but the man served overseas. It seems sometimes the records were slow to be updated (or a casualty occured soon after arrival in the theatre). I also think that sometimes the active battalion posting occured once in France, so technically the man crossed over still in his original unit.

Ian

[Beau Geste]

Harry,

Yes, I have seen on here many cases where the medals or CWGC info reflect a home based garrison or training battalion but the man served overseas. It seems sometimes the records were slow to be updated (or a casualty occured soon after arrival in the theatre). I also think that sometimes the active battalion posting occured once in France, so technically the man crossed over still in his original unit.

Ian

Thanks Ian for pointing me in what could well be the right direction. One question, if he had served throughout the war in a reserve capacity. In other words, he hadn't moved overseas, would he still have been entitled to the two medals mentioned i.e. the BWM and the VM ?

Best wishes,

Harry

[ian turner]

Harry,

No, he must have served in a theatre of war to earn the BWM and VM.

There is a great hole in the records for those who did not serve in a theatre of war - no MICs and more often than not their service record has gone west in the Blitz.

Your chap has the medals....

Ian

[ralphjd]

Harry, Dont know if of any use, but I have looked up the Richard Lofthouse who died Dec qtr of 1940, death registered in Bolton vol 8c page 512, he was born 1880 son of Thomas and Susannah 289 Derby St Bolton in 1881, father a brickmaker in a kiln, had eight children:- Andrew, Alice, James, Nancy, Elizabeth, Bertha, Robert and Richard all born Bolton. No trace in 1901 but he may be like my grandfather and be serving in South Africa at the time of the Boer War. Regards Ralph.

[Beau Geste]

Harry,

No, he must have served in a theatre of war to earn the BWM and VM.

There is a great hole in the records for those who did not serve in a theatre of war - no MICs and more often than not their service record has gone west in the Blitz.

Your chap has the medals....

Ian

Yes Ian, so I suppose that proves he either transferred to the Labour Corps or, as you say, transferred to a different LF battalion and was perhaps injured and ended up in the L C because of that.

Thanks for your help.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

Harry, Dont know if of any use, but I have looked up the Richard Lofthouse who died Dec qtr of 1940, death registered in Bolton vol 8c page 512, he was born 1880 son of Thomas and Susannah 289 Derby St Bolton in 1881, father a brickmaker in a kiln, had eight children:- Andrew, Alice, James, Nancy, Elizabeth, Bertha, Robert and Richard all born Bolton. No trace in 1901 but he may be like my grandfather and be serving in South Africa at the time of the Boer War. Regards Ralph.

Hello Ralph,

Yes I've been working on the family tree for quite a while. Richard was married to my grandmother (Margaret Murphy) on 26th October 1901. They were living in Gt Ormerod St, Bolton at the time. My father, their only child) was born in 1908. Richard was a "master clogger" and for a lot of years had his own cobblers' shop in various parts of Bolton. He's on the Bolton voters list with his wife Margaret between about 1918 - and - 1924 but then she vanishes. Unfortunately, the Absent Voters Lists for Bolton are missing.

I think they separated. Richard died in Oct 1940. He was pronounced dead on arrival at Bolton Royal Infirmary and after a coroner's inquest he was buried in St Mary's Churchyard, Deane, in Bolton in a "common grave". I'm told that that's what happens when no one is there to claim the body. Margaret was elsewhere and my dad, the only son, was in a German POW camp (Stalag V111 B in Lamsdorf, Upper Silesia).

I've tried to contact descendants of his immediate family. As you pointed out there were eight of them altogether but no one seems to know anything. One of Andrew's three children, another Richard (born 1888) is Nat Lofthouse's father ( Nat of Bolton Wanderers and England fame). His son Jeffrey is also doing the family tree thing but neither he nor Nat will answere my queries. Their family and mine fell out over something stupid and petty when I was about 8 - 10 and Nat has never forgotten it. His father, Richard, is in the medal lists, he served in the LF.

I know a great deal about the family and about my grandfather but I don't know if he served in the Great War. I assume he did. He was able bodied, of the right age and was not in a reserved occupation, so even if he didn't volunteer, they would have conscripted him.

According to an item on p 40 of The Battlefield Europe Book on Mametz Wood more than 300 men from Bolton were enlisted in the 15th Welsh. According to the medal lists there is a Richard Lofthouse who served in that battalion. I put two and two together and have been trying to prove it adds up to four so to speak.

Unfortunately, those family members who would have known are all dead, so..........

Anyway thank you for trying to help.

Best wishes,

Harry

[Ivor Lee]

His Labour Corps number suggests that, initially at least, he was in 587 Company. This was a Home Service Employment Company stationed at Bedford.

To be strictly accurate I would expect him to have been in 363 Reserve Company for a couple of days before being sent to 587.

From his number I would suggest he was transferred to the Labour Corps in August 1917.

Ivor

[Blackblue]

I have 'Salford Pals' by Michael Stedman....but I have recently moved and it is packed. The LF number 15946 may be a Salford Pals number. There are original rolls of all the battalions in the book...15th, 16th, 19th and 20th Service Battalions. May be worth a look...as would the Medal Rolls themselves.

Rgds

Tim

[Beau Geste]

His Labour Corps number suggests that, initially at least, he was in 587 Company. This was a Home Service Employment Company stationed at Bedford.

To be strictly accurate I would expect him to have been in 363 Reserve Company for a couple of days before being sent to 587.

From his number I would suggest he was transferred to the Labour Corps in August 1917.

Ivor

Thank you Ivor. I never cease to be impressed by the detailed knowledge available on the forum.

I'm most grateful,

Harry

[Beau Geste]

I have 'Salford Pals' by Michael Stedman....but I have recently moved and it is packed. The LF number 15946 may be a Salford Pals number. There are original rolls of all the battalions in the book...15th, 16th, 19th and 20th Service Battalions. May be worth a look...as would the Medal Rolls themselves.

Rgds

Tim

Hello Tim,

I've read Stedman's book and thought it was excellent. The soldier whose actions Stedman describes that really got to me was Lieut Brooman, so much so that last year my wife and I made a special journey to visit his grave at Savy, near St. Quentin.

The copy I read was from the local library and I'll pop in there today to see if it's on their shelves.

Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated.

Harry

[Beau Geste]

I have 'Salford Pals' by Michael Stedman....but I have recently moved and it is packed. The LF number 15946 may be a Salford Pals number. There are original rolls of all the battalions in the book...15th, 16th, 19th and 20th Service Battalions. May be worth a look...as would the Medal Rolls themselves.

Rgds

Tim

Hello again Tim,

The library did have Stedman's book on the Salford Pals and I could see immediately why you suggested that Pte 15946 Herbert Mattinson might have been in one of their battalions. There were indeed hundreds of soldiers with a five figure army number beginning with 15 but unfortunately there were relatively few in the 152 series. Still it was well worth the effort.

Thanks again Tim

Harry

[Blackblue]

Cheers Harry,

Medal Rolls should give you the Bn then. My Grandad was LF also...9th and 1/5th Battalions.

Rgds

Tim

[Beau Geste]

Cheers Harry,

Medal Rolls should give you the Bn then. My Grandad was LF also...9th and 1/5th Battalions.

Rgds

Tim

Next time I'm in the Kew area that will be a priority.

Thanks Tim

Harry

[Beau Geste]

A member of Herbert Mattinson's family has just delivered two other items dating back to the great War. The photo was in a little (four and a half by three and a half inches) "booklet," with just two pages, that has the Lancashire Fusiliers cap badge on the front and the words "With Best Wishes for Christmas and The New Year printed inside. It has also got the attached photo of a "Fusilier (in) Winter Trench Uniform" that I thought some of you would be interested in. It's signed "Your Loving Son Bert".

The other item is a piece of cardboard, roughly the same size as the "booklet" on which Herbert has written: Pte. H. Mattinson, Reg No. 368509, and then what looks like 114 Employment Comp, (it's the figure 4 that is indistinct) RE, British Expeditionary Force, France.

In earlier postings on this thread I gave his regimental number as 308509 because that is how it seemed to appear on the medal card I downloaded from Kew.

Unfortunately, Herbert never seemed to bother dating his letters or other bits and pieces. A pity, it would have been a help.

[ian turner]

Description Medal card of Mattinson, Herbert

Corps Regiment No Rank

Lancashire Fusiliers 15946 Private

Labour Corps 368509 Private

[Beau Geste]

Description Medal card of Mattinson, Herbert

Corps Regiment No Rank

Lancashire Fusiliers 15946 Private

Labour Corps 368509 Private

Thank you Ian,

If you look at the six in 368509 on the medal card, you will perhaps see how it coincides with the figure 9 above it (in 15946) so that it looks as if it could be 308509 !

At least that's the way it looked to me at first. It was only when I got the handwritten card I mentioned earlier, that I realised I had misread the medal card.

Regards,

Harry