strongbow Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 I'm looking for information regarding the sinking of HMS Mary Rose and HMS Strongbow, along with most of its convoy on 17th October 1917. I have lots of information from the PRO, and from websites from the British perspective, but I would appreciate any help if anyone has any German perspctive accounts, newspaper articles etc. Any relatives of those on the ship who have personal information that they would like to share would be most welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel999 Posted 24 April , 2004 Share Posted 24 April , 2004 One of the 5.9 inch guns from one of these two cruisers is an exhibit at the Museum on Hoy, Orkney. I cannot remember for the life of me which one it is...But somewhere I have a number of pictures of self making a poor effort to steal it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 24 April , 2004 Share Posted 24 April , 2004 Nigel Taffrail says: Curiously enough, I saw the Bremse, which was one of the vessels scuttled at Scapa Flow on June 21st, 1919, and afterwards salved, being demolished bottom-up alongside Messrs. Cox and Danks's jetty at Lyness, Orkney, in June 1931. This probably indicates that the gun was from Bremse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nigel999 Posted 25 April , 2004 Share Posted 25 April , 2004 I'm inclined to think it is BREMSE...it rings more true than BRUMMER...Interesting when you think that the Gun was alamost certainly one of those which helped sink MARY ROSE and STRONGBOW. I have the trio to P.O. A.S. Bolton who was one of those KIA in MARY ROSE in this action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hi Daniel Elliot Carss, Stoker (TZ/9286) was kia HMS Mary Rose and is on the Embleton War Memorial. Fred J Carss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 A bit of info - culled from various sites. The German high command decided to make a surprise attack on convoy traffic between the Shetlands and Norway, aiming to assist the U-boat campaign by forcing the British to divert forces to protect the Scandinavian traffic. They chose the fast minelaying cruisers BRUMMER and BREMSE. The Admiralty learned through wireless intercepts that these ships were out, but as they thought of these ships as minelayers they did not think they would venture far to the north to attack the convoy. Room 40, the Admiralty's cryptanalytic operation, did not have a chart of Allied movements and did not know of the convoy's presence; Admiral James later speculated that if they had known of it, they might have discerned from the course of the German ships that the Scandinavian convoys were their target. Cruiser squadrons were sent to sea on the strength of the radio intelligence, but Beatty was apparently not actually told that BREMSE and BRUMMER were at sea. On the morning of 17 October 1917 the German ships intercepted a westbound convoy 65 miles east of Lerwick, consisting of twelve merchantmen (two British, one Belgian, nine neutral Scandinavians) escorted by destroyers MARY ROSE and STRONGBOW and two armed trawlers. STRONGBOW was just astern of the convoy, while MARY ROSE was six to eight miles ahead of it. STRONGBOW sighted the German cruisers in poor visibility at no more than 4,000 yards, and took them for British light cruisers, which they had evidently been rigged to resemble. She challenged several times before going to action stations. By this time BRUMMER had closed to within 3,000 yards and opened a devastating fire, immediately knocking out STRONGBOW main steam pipe and wireless; just before this the destroyer had been attempting to transmit a warning, but the German cruisers jammed the signal, as they did all similar efforts by the Allied ships. The cruisers then turned to the merchantmen and quickly sank nine of them. British historians severely criticized the Germans for sinking the merchantmen without giving the crews time to escape. The German official history notes the need to prevent the Allied ships from transmitting wireless warnings; while the mention is apparently not made in this context, this might account for the actions of the two cruisers. British historians also claim that the Germans later fired on the survivors of the destroyers in the water. The Germans deny this. MARY ROSE heard the firing astern and closed and fought the Germans. She was rapidly sunk, and STRONGBOW was finished off. Later official enquiries praised the courage of the two destroyers but criticized them for rashness in closing the enemy, contending that they should have stood off and transmitted warning signals. The MARY ROSE inquiry, for example, stated that "the reasons for thus attacking are thus obscure, as it must have been evident that he would soon be put out of action, leaving his convoy unprotected, whereas if he had remained at long range, he might have drawn, some at any rate, of the enemy forces away from the convoy." Marder seems to concur with this judgement, although not explicitly. It is rather difficult, though, to see how the two destroyers could have protected the convoy without engaging the cruisers, nor is it self-evident that if they had stood off the Germans would have chased them rather than slaughtering the merchantmen at their leisure. Best wishes. Andy. SMS Brummer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 Hello The two armed trawlers and three steamers, including the two British steamers, survived. Peterhead armed trawler ELISE rescued a number of survivours from MARY ROSE. The second trawler was Aberdeen P. FANNON. The lost steamers were Norwegian HABIL (636 tons), Norwegian KRISTINE (569 tons), Norwegian SILJA (1229 tons), Swedish H. WICANDER (1229 tons), Danish STELLA (836 tons), Norwegian SORHAUG (1013 tons), Danish MARGRETHE (1240 tons), Norwegian DAGJORG (869 tons), and Swedish VISBUR (877 tons) . don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 7 August , 2005 Share Posted 7 August , 2005 From Naval Operations Vol 5 by Henry Newbolt: The two armed trawlers were the 'Elise' and the 'P. Fannon'. The 'Elise' managed to keep out of the action and returned to pick up survivors. The 'P.Fannon' and 3 (three) British merchantmen got away but the remainder of the convoy, 9 ships, was sunk. Does anyone have any details of these sunken merchantmen? Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strongbow Posted 8 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 8 August , 2005 Information on two of the merchant ships: H Wicander. Built 1892. Owner: Stockholms Rederi AB Svea, Stockholm. Visbur. Built 1911. Owner: Ångfartygs AB Svithiod, Gothenburg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kin47 Posted 8 August , 2005 Share Posted 8 August , 2005 Hello Reference the MARY ROSE action, the three escaping merchant ships were 2 British and 1 Belgian. don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 8 August , 2005 Share Posted 8 August , 2005 kin47 & strongbow, Thanks for the info on the neutral merchant ships. Interesting that the Belgian ship was classed as British, perhaps it had escaped from Belgium and was sailing under British colours. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strongbow Posted 9 August , 2005 Author Share Posted 9 August , 2005 Does anybody have pictures of the Elise and the P. Fannon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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