A possible Non Com?

[Neil Clark]

Can anyone Please help me out a bit? I need this chaps death reference. I can't find it anywhere? After 1919 he seems to have done a vanishing act. Perhaps he died overseas? This is my last chance if no one can help then I will have to confine poor Jack to the recycle bin on my PC, something I don't really want to do.

I now have quite a good case but it will go nowhere unless I can prove he died of a war related cause -

6. UDEN J

Lympne Village War Memorial

Lympne School War Memorial

Private 495038 (formerly Bugler 1096) Jack UDEN. 82nd Field Ambulance. RAMC. Formerly 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance (2nd HCFA). Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC). Date & Place of death are unknown at present. Son of Frederick and Elizabeth Uden of Uden Butchers Shop, 14 High Street, Hythe, Kent. Born Hythe circa 1896. Resided 3 Alma Place, Alma Street, Canterbury, Kent. Enlisted 27 February 1912 at Shorncliffe Camp, Folkestone, Kent. Discharged 16 February 1919 (Para XVI, Kings Regs) No longer Fit for War Service. His service papers state he was discharged with – MALARIA! Jack was awarded a 20% Disability War Pension on 17 February 1919 by the Ministry of Pensions. The award was due to be reassessed 26 weeks later.

Educated Lympne village school, Lympne, Kent. His name is commemorated on the schools civic tribute there as well as the main village war memorial. In 2006 the Lympne County Primary School burnt down to the ground and the old school plaque commemorating the ex boys lost in the Great War was completely destroyed! The only monument now bearing Jack’s name is the local parish civic war memorial. It is not known if the new school will replace the original plaque which was destroyed.

Jack resided at 3 Alma Place in Canterbury, Kent. His name does NOT appear on the Canterbury city civic tribute which is surprising! Note – before 1912 the 2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance was based in Canterbury. In 1912 it moved to the Buffs Drill Hall, Ashford. The fact Jack served in the RAMC may have had something to do with him living there. Jack had obviously left the Hythe/Lympne areas before the outbreak of war. His parents continued to reside in Hythe or Lympne which would account for his name going forward for the village tribute. Note that Jack was educated in the Lympne Village School too so he must have resided there at some stage during his childhood probably after leaving Hythe where his father owned a Butchers Shop in the High Street.

The 2nd Homes Counties Field Ambulance was a Territorial Force RAMC unit which moved to Ashford’s Buffs Drill Hall in 1912 from Canterbury. It would appear that Jack was a regular (professional) soldier in the Royal Army Medical Corps and on the outbreak of war was sent to the local RAMC (V) Territorial Force unit to help out. On 22 December 1914 Jack landed in France with his unit. After the war he was awarded the 1915 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal.

His service papers show the cause of discharge as MALARIA! This means that Jack must have served in a Tropical theatre of war as well as France. Solved – see this Willesborough casualty –

Private 2660 Frank Cecil LANCEFIELD. 82nd Field Ambulance (1/2nd Home Counties Field Ambulance). Royal Army Medical Corps (RAMC) V. Died in Salonica (Greece) 27th February 1917. Born Willesborough. Son of George and Louisa Lancefield of 102, Willesborough Street, Ashford, Kent. Buried in the Salonika (Lembet Road) Cemetery, Greece. Grave reference 858.

Poor Jack contracted Malaria while serving in Salonkia. According to MS OH Vol 4 the 82nd Field Ambulance landed France 22 December 1914 with the 27th Division. They left Europe for Salonika 28 November 1915.

RAMC Medal Roll References

101/B63 Page 4,830

Jack’s parents were local to Kent. His father was born in Hythe and his mother in Dover. The rest of the family (all their children) were all born in Hythe. We think that his parents resided in Lympne after the war ended and that they ensured his name was placed on the parish tribute and Lympne village School memorial plaque after he died (as a direct result of his war service).

Not recorded on the GRO death index for the Great War. This presents us with a problem because we can’t locate a record of any death! Without the Death Certificate we are unable to make a good case for belated commemoration because we can’t prove he died as a direct result of his war service.

1901 Census

14 High Street, Hythe, Kent (Butchers)

Frederick UDEN 44 Butchers Shopkeeper

Elizabeth 44

Eleanor 18

Frederick 17

Harry 15

William 13

JACK 11

Joy 9

May 7

Kate 5

Albert 2

[izzy]

check the g.r.o indexes up to 1921 as the war graves commission covers deaths up to this period. do any of the memorials that you mention have on all who served as opposed to all that died as he may not be a casualty if you have the dates the memorial was unveiled check newspapers for a list of people named as a regiment might be mentioned. also check local churchyard as he may get a mention on a family members grave. hope this is of some use to you

[Neil Clark]

Izzy,

Thanks for your kind advice. I have already done all those things I'm afraid. That's where I got the detailed information from above. With regard to him not being a casualty I have searched the GRO from 1919 until 1990 with no luck. There doesn't seem to be any record of his death anywhere in the UK.

[Terry Denham]

Neil

Probably unlikely but have you checked the Scottish and Irish death indices?

[BJanman]

Neil

Men from this unit served with the Army of the Black Sea, is there also a chance that he could have contracted Malaria there (if he went there)? Is there evidence that he made it home? (were men discharged once they got home or could they be discharged whilst conversing in hospitals?) They were serving in the Caucasus area in 1919.

By the way, B Section of the 2nd Home Counties was at Ashford with a drill station at Folkestone. Is there a possibility that he enlisted there?

Good luck, i hope you find him.

Barbara

[Neil Clark]

Terry,

Good idea. I will look into this...

Barbara,

My records show that the 2nd HCFA had it's HQ company in Ashford after it moved there from Canterbury. Mick Mannock VC served with this unit in Ashford before joining the RE and then the RFC. Interesting idea regarding being discharged overseas whilst still being treated. Is there anyone who can confirm this ever took place? It would certainly explain why I can't locate any record of his death in the UK. My understanding is that men were always returned home before being discharged. If this practice was widespread then I would venture there are hundreds of non-coms waiting to be found... I wonder where there deaths would have been recorded if they died as civilians in Salonika (if at all)? Maybe a few were sent to hospitals in Malta and Lemnos? Who knows.

[BJanman]

Neil

You are right the Unit and Headquarters was at Ashford but there were section Head-Quarters, in different areas. Hopefully I have attached (and you can read) the 1913 Royal Army Medical Corps, Territorial Force, Returns.

Barbara

[apwright]

Your "Jack" was John UDEN, born Q3 1890 in Elham district (Vol. 2a Page 939).

1891 Census:

14 High St, Hythe

UDEN Frederick S, Head, 32, Butcher, born Hythe ("Frederic Stephen" b Elham Q4 1856, "Frederick Steven" m Q3 1881, "Frederick Stephen" d Q1 1938, age 81)

UDEN Elizabeth D, Wife, 32, born Dover (Elizabeth Dunkin GILLMAN, b Dover Q4 1856, m Q3 1881)

UDEN Frederick D [sic], Son, 6 (Frederick Charles, b Q1 1884, m Elizabeth Alice AHERN in Dover Q3 1908)

UDEN Harry, Son, 4 (b Q3 1886)

UDEN William, Son, 2 (b Q3 1889, m Violet M HILLS Q3 1915)

UDEN John, Son, 6 months (b Q4 1890, poss. m Dorothy E WILKINS Q4 1921)

UDEN Eleanor L, Dau, 9 (Eleanor Lilian b Q3 1882, m Arthur WOODS Q1 1915)

WEBB Frederick, Lodger, 19, Butcher's Assistant, born Canterbury

CHEESEMAN Bertha E, Servant, 16, Servant Domestic, born Lenham

(all BMDs in Elham RD unless otherwise specified!)

As the 1891 census was taken on 5/4/1891, this John must have been born around October 1890, which tallies with the birth registration above.

1901 Census:

14 High St, Hythe

UDEN Frederick, Head, 44, Butcher/Shopkeeper, born Hythe

UDEN Elizabeth, Wife, 44, born Dover

UDEN Eleanor, Dau, 18

UDEN Frederick, Son, 17

UDEN Harry, Son, 14

UDEN William, Son, 13

UDEN Jack, Son, 11

UDEN Ivy, Dau, 9 (b Q1 1892, d Q3 1918 age 25)

UDEN May, Dau, 7 (b Q3 1894, m William H CANNON in West Ashford Q2 1925)

UDEN Kate, Dau, 5 (b Q4 1896)

UDEN Albert, Son, 2 (Albert Edward, b Q4 1898, m Annie M CLOKE Q3 1924)

There are two interesting marriage records:

Marriages Q4 1921 in Elham - UDEN John to WILKINS Dorothy E (2a 2797)

(Possibly Dorothy Emma WILKINS, born Elham Q2 1898)

No idea if this is him, but there are no other plain John UDENs in Elham that fit the bill (though you say he was living in Canterbury?). If this is him, then he probably outlived the deadline for CWGC commemoration. I can find no children from this marriage.

Then there's this:

Marriages Q3 1924 in Medway - UDEN Dorothy E to MORRIS Alan S (2a 1933)

(Alan Stanley MORRIS, b Medway Q4 1900)

This *could* perhaps be a recently widowed Mrs John UDEN remarrying, or it could just as well be the first marriage of Dorothy Ellen UDEN, born Strood RD, Q2 1904.

I'm not convinced Jack did die. Malaria can come and go, with sudden attacks being followed by years of good health.

Jack had obviously left the Hythe/Lympne areas before the outbreak of war. His parents continued to reside in Hythe or Lympne which would account for his name going forward for the village tribute. Note that Jack was educated in the Lympne Village School too so he must have resided there at some stage during his childhood probably after leaving Hythe where his father owned a Butchers Shop in the High Street.

The family was at 14 High St, Hythe, until at least 1903, as the father Frederick Stephen UDEN is listed there in Kelly's Directory of Kent 1903.

He must have retired some time after, however, because Kelly's Directory of Kent 1913 shows him as a farmer at Pennypot Farm, Dymchurch Road, West Hythe. (Which is close enough to Lympne for young Jack to walk to school!)

This ties in with:

http://www.doverwarmemorialproject.org.uk/...I/SurnamesA.htm under "Ahern, H W"

"One of the other sisters became Mrs Youden, of Penny Pot Farm, Hythe". This was Elizabeth Alice AHERN, who married Jack's eldest brother Frederick Charles in Dover, Q3 1908. Note the spelling YOUDEN - maybe another avenue of investigation...?

Are you aware of the Uden Family Tree website at http://www.uden.seeviewo.org/index.html ?

Although this particular branch of the family is not very well documented, the site owner may be able to give you some leads.

Hope this helps! It's an interesting case.

Adrian

[Neil Clark]

Adrian,

That information is extremely helpful indeed. It gives me a few other lines of enquiry. I shall keep you all informed of any progress I make on this page.

BJAY,

Interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to provide the data. I'm sure you realise that not much is known about these volunteer RAMC units. It's a great pity because I often come across people wanting to find out more.

All the very best

Neil