4th Battalion South Wales Borderers

[roblat]

I have just discovered my grandfather was a Sergeant (Ernest George Latham) in the 4thBtn SWB and first saw action on Gallipoli in July 1915 he survived this and the continued on with the regiment. Shortly after this he appears to have been reassigned to the Machine Gun Corps . I would like to know if he would have remained with his original unit or moved as a seperate entity. I have been told that after Gallipoli the 4th Btn SWB operated in the middle east and that is where my relatives believe my great grandfather to have completed his service. However as I understand it the MGC were affiliated to divisional command which was the 38th. The research I have been able to do is confusing as MGC associated with the 38th are reported in action in France/Belgium is it possible that my Great Grandfather fought in both areas? I think his MGC regiment No was 15923 if anyone can help greatly appreciated.

I have looked at the pages for the SWB but I am still unclear on what practically happend to the men who were reassigned to the MGC.

[clive_hughes]

Hello,

the 4th SWB was the first "Kitchener" battalion of the regiment, and part of the 40th Infantry Brigade, 13th (Western) Division. As such they served with that Division in Gallipoli 1915, Egypt briefly Jan-Feb 1916, then to Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) till the end of the war in 1918.

An MGC expert can maybe comment on his regimental number; but to the best of my knowledge until 1915 each Infantry battalion had a machine-gun section to support it. In 1915 the MGC was formed, and personnel from these sections were joined together in Companies which took the number of the brigades they came from. So the different sections from the 40th Inf. Brigade became the 40th Company MGC. It would have supported the Brigade with heavy machine-gun fire as needed.

In 1918 a further reorganization joined the Companies together into battalions: so the 40th Coy. together with the 38th and 39th Coys. became the 13th Battalion MGC, still serving with the Division.

The above supposes that your relative simply made the transfer from Infantry to the new MGC, and that he stayed with his company/battalion throughout. This may not have been the case, and you will only be able to pin down his movements etc if his service record or other documentation survives. The "Long, Long Trail" website has information on how to trace these official papers.

Incidentally, his medal card online shows that at some point he was invalided out of the Army and received the Silver War Badge. The registers for this (at the National Archives) will give you at least the cause of discharge and the date he left the Forces. The medal Rolls for the MGC (also at the NA) may also give you some information re. his MGC company or date of transfer etc.

Best of luck with your research.

LST_164

[roblat]

Thanks LST_164,

I have his MIC attached and figured out from info on the Long Long Trail when he arrived in Gallipolli, however I confess alot on the card is double dutch to me. How can you tell that he was invalid out I thought that the SWB reference was for The South Wales Borderers? I know that my Great Grandfather was in the UK in June of 1916 as on his marriage certificate Belton Park Camp is listed as his address. I guess my next step is to try and find out if his MGC regiment left the UK in mid to late 1916 or if he was injured in the UK in Training

Its all curious as the older members of my family are sure that he was in the middle east for the duration of the war and I am fairly sure that this was not the case. I suppose my next stop is Kew

Many Thanks

[Bazezah]

Hi Roblat

If you esnd you e-mail address vis a PM Iwill send you what I have regarding the 4th Bn SWB

Regards Bazezah (Barry)

[clive_hughes]

Roblat,

the first unit listed on the card (4th SWBordrs.) is the one in which he was serving when he first arrived in a Theatre of War (in this case, 2B = Gallipoli). If he had served in another unit prior to that point, the card wouldn't record it.

At some date unknown, he transferred into the MGC (Medal Roll may help there). That was his final unit, so though all three medals will be named to him as a Sgt in the SWBordrs, his final unit (MGC) was responsible for issuing them. That will account for the MGC Medal Roll codes in the boxes beneath, that direct you to the actual volume & page where his entry for the British War and Victory Medals, and (next entry) his 1914-15 Star are recorded. These rolls are at Kew.

Underneath all of these is an entry which, though it confusingly looks to do with the S.Wales Bordrs., is in fact "Silver War Badge List MGC 571". These lists are also at Kew. It refers to the small circular openwork silver badge, lettered "For Services Rendered" round the Royal Monogramme "GRI" & numbered on the back, which was given to personnel discharged from the Forces on account of wounds, injuries, health concerns etc. The aim was to pin these to their lapels in civvies, and show publicly that they had "done their bit" & been discharged, and to stop people bothering them with questions as to why they weren't in khaki, or giving them white feathers etc.

The full details were recorded on his personal file, but as two thirds of these were lost in the Blitz 1940 you only have a one in three chance of finding it (again, at Kew). One other way of finding details might be (if you knew his home address in those days) to enquire about the survival of the Absent Voters List 1918 for his Parliamentary Constituency at the relevant County Record Office. If he was serving at the end of 1918, and if the AVL survives (many don't), it could give you his MGC Company/Battn. at that time. If he had been discharged by then, of course he won't be listed.

Someone else on the Forum may know more about the types of unit present at Belton Park Camp in 1916. It may be worth your while asking about this in a separate posting in the "Home & POWs" section under that title (and likewise separately about his MGC number in the "Regiments" section - there are knowledgeable people out there, but with a 4th SWB heading they may think it isn't one of their specialities...)

I think a trip to Kew or employing the services of a reputable researcher to do that bit for you is your next step. Please keep us updated on your progress.

LST_164

[Keith_history_buff]

Some interesting content within a booklet produced by South Wales Police during the WW1 centenary period, a product of their "First World War Project Group"

PC 134 FREDERICK RICHARDS GLAMORGAN CONSTABULARY
CORPORAL 13027 4TH BATTALION, SOUTH WALES BORDERERS

Frederick is the only member of the predecessor forces of South Wales Police to have lost his life at Gallipoli. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Helles Memorial on the Peninsula and on the Glamorgan Police War Memorial at Bridgend.

'A decision was then made to make a renewed attempt to take the Peninsula and further landings were to take place at and near Suvla Bay. It was to this operation that 4th Battalion, South Wales Borderers was to contribute.

The Battalion sailed from Avonmouth on the White Star liner the SS Megantic on 28th June 1915. There was a delay in sailing as a transport ship had been sunk by a German submarine off Lundy. The Battalion arrived at Gallipoli on 15th July and spent two weeks on the peninsula before being withdrawn to Mudros, on the Greek island of Lemnos, to prepare for the main attack.

On 4th August, together with other units of the 13th, Division the Battalion landed at “Anzac Cove” and proceeded to move inland. Its objective was to capture the ridge known as Sari Bair in conjunction with the landing by other divisions at Suvla Bay six miles to the north.'


Link to booklet:
https://www.south-wales.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/south-wales/heritage-centre/heritage-projects/world-war-i/Great-War-Centenary-1915.pdf

[clive_hughes]

Quite a while since the original post, but thanks for that addition to our knowledge on theis casualty Keith

 

Clive