Retreat or withdrawal

[John_Hartley]

Recently reading a number of war diaries and wonder if there is any difference in the two words.

Seems to me that British troops under pressure "withdraw" whilst German or Turkish ones "retreat".

Semantics or something else?

John

[stevem49]

Quite simple really -

The British always make a fighting withdrawal whilst the rest of the world retreats in disarray

From memory the British Army always used the word 'withdrawal' which obviously sounds much better than 'retreat' in military terms.

Withdrawal - retire from a place or position.

Retreat - (When used in Military terms) - To retire before superior forces or after defeat.

I think it was the 'defeat' bit that upset the generals and so withdraw became the norm.

stevem

[truthergw]

Purely semantic I reckon. In the same way, forces suffered a check rather than a defeat. Other words were retire and retiral. There is an element of spin, of course but there was also the ever present idea of morale. The men after Mons would be told that they were falling back on their lines of communication. They would never have been encouraged to think that they were retreating, simply looking for a good place to halt, check the enemy then make a successful counter attack. Which, of course, is what happened.

[Ron Clifton]

It is also better for morale in taining. You can train men to prepare for a retirement or a (fighting)withdrawal, but it is unwise to train the how to retreat.

However, the battle honour "Retreat from Mons" was still awarded as such to some units.

Ron

[truthergw]

Fairly safe after the event but still frowned upon in many quarters. Not the done thing to gain battle honour for a retreat or encourage the idea that it might happen.

[Terry_Reeves]

A withdrawal is something you do on your own terms, because it is tactically better for you, although enemy activity may help bring that about.

Retreat is what we did in 1914 and 1918 and 1940, because the enemy is driving you backwards and there is little or nothing you can do about it.

TR

[centurion]

We make a strategic withdrawal

You make an orderly retreat

They flee in panic and disorder

However there are examples in history of masterly strategic withdrawals - for example Wellington's to the lines of Torres Vedras around Lisbon drawing the numerically superior French into a position where they could not advance,were positioned in a stripped and bare countryside and harassed by guerrilla attacks. By the time disease, hunger and cold forced them to withdraw they had probably lost more men than if they had lost a battle.

I also wonder if the German planned withdrawal to the Hindenburg line counts as a rear retreat.

[Druid_Ian]

A withdrawal is something you do on your own terms, because it is tactically better for you, although enemy activity may help bring that about.

Retreat is what we did in 1914 and 1918 and 1940, because the enemy is driving you backwards and there is little or nothing you can do about it.

TR

I agree with Terry

you can have a trench raid during which you withdraw from the enemy trenches, you have not been defeated so it is not a retreat but a planned event

[Desdichado]

I agree with Terry

you can have a trench raid during which you withdraw from the enemy trenches, you have not been defeated so it is not a retreat but a planned event

Not too well-versed in infantry tactics but I understand that when an army retreats, it often leaves a rearguard to slow up the advancing enemy. A withdrawal, carried out on a smaller scale, would not entail such a sacrifice. Now you can feel free to shoot me down.

[baorbrat]

A retreat is when they do it.

A Withdrawal is when you do.

[Pete1052]

I disagree, Des. A withdrawal from contact with the enemy is said to be one of the most difficult of all operations to conduct.

[centurion]

There can be various types of rear guard to wit

1. A 'sacrificial' rearguard, often stationary. For example holding the approach to a bridge whilst the rest of the force cross and the engineers fire their charges

2. A mobile rear guard. For example falling back through a series of prepared positions, not only does this delay the enemy advance but if skillfully handled can inflict significant casualties whilst minimising its own.

Retreats often fall somewhere betwen these two depending on the degree to which time has been available to plan ans arrange matters.

[Mark Hone]

British Army instructors will give you a b*!!*$%&g if you order 'retreat' during an exercise. The US Marines never retreat. Apparently at Chosin Reservoir in the Korean War they conducted a skillful 'advance to the rear'.

[Pete1052]

In the Chosin the Marines were attacking in another direction.

[centurion]

Apparently at Chosin Reservoir in the Korean War they conducted a skillful 'advance to the rear'.

Major General Oliver P Smith, Chosin Reservoir 1950 "Retreat, hell! We're just fighting in a different direction"

Major General J.G.Legge Order to Australian 2nd Div 1916 "The word "retire" is absolutely forbidden in this division, and some other phrase has to be used where any withdrawal is required"

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 14/06/2008 at 15:44, John_Hartley said:

Recently reading a number of war diaries and wonder if there is any difference in the two words.

Seems to me that British troops under pressure "withdraw" whilst German or Turkish ones "retreat".

I have just finished reading W.V. Tilsley's Other Ranks, written in the late 1930s, and closely based on the author's own wartime experience. In giving an account of the first occasion on which the main character, Bradshaw, was required to go "over the top", namely the 164th Brigade's attack on Ginchy on 9th September 1916 (incidentally an engagement in which my grandfather also took part, and which he describes in A Lancashire Fusilier's First World War), he says:
Machine-gun bullets swished the air above. Jerry knew where they were all right ... the subaltern decided to 'retire'. Bradshaw, though relieved, was puzzled. He had not yet learnt the subtle difference between retreating and retiring ...

[TEW]

I've seen quite a few diaries that state that 'the word retire does not exist'.

You could interpret that as meaning it's not a military term or that anything other than holding a position or moving forward was not acceptable.

I think the latter was meant. Giving an order to retire could land an officer in hotter water than an order to retreat. Perhaps 'fall back' was a safer option?

TEW

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

6 hours ago, TEW said:

I've seen quite a few diaries that state that 'the word retire does not exist'.

You could interpret that as meaning it's not a military term or that anything other than holding a position or moving forward was not acceptable.

Or, it could mean, "Use another form of instruction that can't be used deceptively by the enemy", as in this thread ....

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/292964-germans-causing-allies-to-retreat-by-giving-order-to-retire-in-english/?tab=comments#comment-3060251

 

[Tyke2]

Hi John, 

I have the personal war diary of my Wife’s GF who served in the South Lancashire Regiment with the BEF. In his writings he uses the word ‘retire’ to describe withdrawing from enemy contact. As a regular (enlisted 1905) he may have been using an out of date term, however it does demonstrate that this word was used in 1914/15, although possibly not as an order.

Cheers,

Dave.

[WhiteStarLine]

This is where doctrine and tradition clash and the terms were still used carefully when I served in the 70s and 80s.

• "Our forces attacked and won a glorious victory - their forces retreated in disarray".
• "Our forces withdrew to a prepared position to conform with the flanking movement of an allied unit".