What did British Snipers use?

[centurion]

One of the senior instructors at Hythe writes of the SMLE "Its sole disadvantage is that super accuracy of fire does not result whilst the bolt and body are thus in a state of compression when the shot is fired. Accuracy however is sufficient for all service uses except that of sniping" (my italics). Of the Sniping Rifle No 3 Mk 1 in comparison with the SMLE he says "Accuracy at short range is therefore much superior" (again my italics). Of the Pattern '14 (P14) rifle in comparison with the SMLE he says "its increased accuracy makes it more suitable for use as a sniping rifle. It is made to be fitted with a telescopic sight for sniping"

So what would a company sniper be equipped with in say 1915? Would there be a different weapon for short and long range sniping?

[TonyE]

The only weapon that was issued for sniping in the normal sense of the word during the war was the SMLE. These were equipped with a variety of telescopic sights, the most common being the Aldis (3,196) and the Priscopic Prism Company (4.830)sights, all side mounted.

The Pattern 14 rifle with the Pattern 1918 sight was not ready in time before the war ended, although a few pre-production units may have reached France before November. Post war, the P.14 (T) became the issue rifle and the SMLE snipers were scrapped and the scopes other than the Aldis sold off.

For specialist armoiur piercing work against enemy steel loopholes a variety of Express rifles were used, including up to .600 Nitro Express, but these were heartily disliked by the troops because of the heavy recoil and also because the muzzle blast was easily spotted and invariably drew retribution from German trench mortars. Also tried were a few Pattern 13 rifles firing the .276 round. There was a plan to re-barrel P.13 rifles in store to fire .470 Nitro rounds but this was all abandoned when the .303 Armour piercing Mark VIIW round came into service in 1917 as this had better penetration than any of the previous weapons.

The problem with the SMLE at short range is that due to the barrel harmonics it tends to "hollow group" at ranges less than about 300 yards. This is the result partly of a front locking bolt and partly due to the set-up of the barrel bedding. The P.14, being rear locking, does not suffer from this problem. Back when target shooters at Bisley had to use a service rifle, the favoured rifles were a Pattern 14 at short range and a SMLE "over the hill" at 900 and 1000 yards. By the 1960s of course the No.4 was being used at all ranges.

Regards

TonyE

[Mick D]

Tony,

I guess the barrel of an SMLE is not free floating, surely this adds to the problem.

Mick

[4thGordons]

If you want a reasonable discussion all these issues:

Hesketh-Pritchard DSC MC, Major H., "Sniping In France: with notes on the Scientific Training of Scouts, Observers and Snipers " (originally published by EP Dutton and Co) republished as "Sniping in France: How the British Army Won The Sniping War In The Trenches" by Lancer Militaria (ISBN 0-935856-09-9) is a good overview although it focuses more on tactics and training than equipment there is a discussion of rifle types and experimentation.

Chris

[TonyE]

They bedding of a SMLE is a fairly complex arrangement, with the barrel held against a spring loaded plunger in the fore-end and a limited amount of movement in the nosecap. All sorts of special bedding were adopted by target shooters, but the standard military SMLE was still capable of very credible accuracy in the hands of a well trained infantryman.

Regards

TonyE

[Mick D]

I agree, having fired many, and one fairly recently.

They are very accurate even with iron sights.

Were there any variants that were purpose built as sniping rifles ?

Mick

[Pete_C]

"This is the result partly of a front locking bolt and partly due to the set-up of the barrel bedding. The P.14, being rear locking, does not suffer from this problem".

Sorry to be picky Tony, but isn't it the other way round - Enfield, rear locking - Mauser, front locking.

Interested to read your comments on the effectiveness of the MkVIIW round - I didn't realise it was so good. It puts me in mind of the oft repeated documentary "Digging up the Trenches" in which the (on the spot) author Peter Barton, who I rate very highly, produces a clip of (relic) .303 rounds with the bullets reversed and makes a statement on the lines that this was done locally to increase the penetration against armoured sniper plates - I spat my tea out at the time - surely not !!

Manxy

[centurion]

"Lee-Enfield rifles have the locking lugs at the rear end of the bolt - one lug on the right side of the body and the other on the left. This system of locking the breech is a good one from the point of view of rough wear and tear."

Superiority of Fire Major CHB Pridham

[Pete_C]

They bedding of a SMLE is a fairly complex arrangement, with the barrel held against a spring loaded plunger in the fore-end and a limited amount of movement in the nosecap. All sorts of special bedding were adopted by target shooters, but the standard military SMLE was still capable of very credible accuracy in the hands of a well trained infantryman.

Regards

TonyE

Wise words Tony and largely backed up by this - a page from from a 1930's Parker Hale Service Catalogue - £13 3s 6d for a top end SMLE - sounds great but that was a lot of money in the 1930's - probably 2 or 3 weeks wages.

Manxy

[4thGordons]

I think in response to these concerns, in the interwar period some Australian SMLEs were fitted with a heavier barrel. These have an H stamped on the knox form. I believe these rifles served as sniper rifles in WWII (Australian forces continuing to use the No1 rather than adopting the No4 rifle). The barrel channel on forestock of these rifles had to be enlarged.

Chris

[Taiha]

The Canadian snipers continued use the Ross Rifle long after it had been replaced by the SMLE as the CEF standard infantry weapon. The Ross was a nightmare as a standard infantryman's weapon (it jammed at the slightest excuse and early models had a rather worrying tendency to eject the bolt into the users face), but its long range and accuracy made it an ideal sniper's weapon.

I think I have read that some British snipers also adopted the Ross, but i could be wrong.

[Pete_C]

The Pattern 14 rifle with the Pattern 1918 sight was not ready in time before the war ended, although a few pre-production units may have reached France before November. Post war, the P.14 (T) became the issue rifle and the SMLE snipers were scrapped and the scopes other than the Aldis sold off.

The problem with the SMLE at short range is that due to the barrel harmonics it tends to "hollow group" at ranges less than about 300 yards. This is the result partly of a front locking bolt and partly due to the set-up of the barrel bedding. The P.14, being rear locking, does not suffer from this problem. Back when target shooters at Bisley had to use a service rifle, the favoured rifles were a Pattern 14 at short range and a SMLE "over the hill" at 900 and 1000 yards.

Regards

TonyE

Just to back up Tony's comments above - another page from the most excellent 1930's Parker Hale Service Catalogue - in fact they appear to refer to the P14 as the "Sniper" rifle - and a few quid cheaper than the SMLE !

Manxy

[TonyE]

Sorry to be picky Tony, but isn't it the other way round - Enfield, rear locking - Mauser, front locking.

Manxy

A mere juxtaposition dear boy, occasioned by a glass or two of the red fruit juice!

Don't know what made me type that but you are of course absolutely correct - my apologies.

Regards

TonyE

[4thGordons]

as illustrated above (but with a standard peep) fitted to a Remington Pattern 14. (refinished by Navy Arms in the 80s)

I haven't seen the additional sling swivel illustrated on the diagram for the p14 before, does anyone know if this needs an different triggerguard or if it is mounted on top of the standard one....

[Pete_C]

From the same catalogue -

Is that a P14 or P17 - I only ask because there's no provision for long range volley sights which I always thought was a P14 feature - or has it been restocked ?

Regards,

Manxy

[4thGordons]

Manxy,

Many thanks for that! something to look out for.

It is a Pattern 14 in .303" not an M-1917 in .30.06 It was restocked as part of the refinish.

Pattern14s brought out of mothballs in WWII and refinished at Weedon (WRS) had the volley sights deleted and some were restocked so it is possible to find P14s without the volley site dial plate and pointer.

[Pete1052]

...a glass or two of the red fruit juice!

No wonder the British Empire fell apart. Working-class London men are supposed to drink Watney's, a brown beer with no bubbles that tastes like watered-down molasses.

[TonyE]

Oi! Who are you calling working class?

When I was a kid, my job on Sunday mornings was to go to the local "offie" (that's a liquor store to you Pete) and buy a pint of Watneys and a bottle of lemonade. Dad had a glass of beer, Mum and I had a shandy and little brother had the rest of the lemonade. I guess that started from the time I was about eight or nine. So much for identity checks on age these days!

Regards

TonyE

[centurion]

No wonder the British Empire fell apart. Working-class London men are supposed to drink Watney's, a brown beer with no bubbles that tastes like watered-down molasses.

These days if you can find any London Working Class men they are most likely to be drinking some Australian, German or Belgian concoction that looks as if someone else has already drunk it. The US and Canada appear to be a disaster area as far as beer is concerned (I honourably exempt a few New England brews and Big Rock from Calgary)

[Pete1052]

Canada brews good beer such as Molson, Moosehead and Labatt. The Foster consumed in the U.S. is brewed in Canada by Molson under license. The big three breweries in the States that dominated the market until the '70s sell a lot less here than they used to and smaller labels are producing better stuff than they do.

[laughton]

You are correct, many a useless ROSS (as a trench rifle) was traded for a "group" of SMLE for the Canadian Lads in the trenches. If you were a sniper you wanted a Ross, if you were not you did not! Everything has its place, if the place is right.

Also comes with a free McAdam Shovel

The Canadian snipers continued use the Ross Rifle long after it had been replaced by the SMLE as the CEF standard infantry weapon. The Ross was a nightmare as a standard infantryman's weapon (it jammed at the slightest excuse and early models had a rather worrying tendency to eject the bolt into the users face), but its long range and accuracy made it an ideal sniper's weapon.

I think I have read that some British snipers also adopted the Ross, but i could be wrong.

[philsr]

I recently had the opportunity to shoot a sniper's SMLE with the telescopic sight on the left side.

The old boy who owned it said the put it in our right shoulder and sight with our left eye.

It worked OK, but was that how it was meant to be done?

Philsr

[centurion]

Taiha

The Ross of course started out as a target rifle - it was only adopted by the Canadian Government after a Canadian team had used it to win the Palma Trophy at Bisley

Pete 1052

I'm sure there are other good beers in Canada but I remember a very pleasant time some years ago drinking Big Rock beer in a tower restaurant whilst Calgary revolved beneath my feet (drink enough and you get the same effect at ground level). I was told that the only way the folks in Vancouver could get to drink it was if it was first exported to the USA and re imported. (every time I get hot under the collar over the EU I just think of the Canadian Federal system).

[tjec]

When working in the US a few years ago, I used to drink (Canadian brew) Killians Red and quite enjoyed it!

Is it still available?

Hic,

Norman

[4thGordons]

Yup....and its Friday afternoon here too....

Actually I think Killians (IRISH RED) is brewed by Coors of Colorado in the US but as Coors is now MolsonCoors there is a canadian connection!