Civil Executions in WW1

[PhilB]

We all know the number of SADs during the war but few know the comparable civil figures for hangings in UK including Ireland. During the war years, they were:-

1914 from Aug 1st - 6; 1915 - 10; 1916 - 9; 1917 - 10; 1918 to Nov 11 - 5. Total 40.

A few were soldiers. Quote:-

One was Yorkshireman Cpl George Cardwell, a deserter who was on the run with Pte Percy Barrett near Pontefract. On Aug 16th 1918 they robbed a jeweller`s shop run by elderly widow Mrs Rhoda Walker. She was found battered and "suffering from horrific wounds" and died the next day. Witnesses reported seeing two soldiers near the shop, one wearing a wound stripe on his ASC uniform. Four days later, police arrested two men selling rings in a London pub. One sported wound stripes and both were arrested. Cardwell, despite being a deserter, had fought with extreme courage and bravery and had been recomended for both the Distinguished Service Medal and the Military Medal. The six wound stripes he wore were the result of having been wounded in action in France in 1915.

There are some discrepancies here about the medal and wound stripes. They were hanged side by side by Thomas Pierrepoint assisted by Robert Baxter at Armley Gaol, Leeds on 8/1/19, slightly after the Armistice. As expected, I couldn`t find Cardwell (sometimes spelt Caldwell) on CWGC or NA and know nothing more about Barrett.

[Terry Denham]

Any man who died after officially being declared a deserter does not qualify for CWGC recognition as he had been deemed to have left the forces with no intention to return. As this man was a deserter and was captured by the civilian police and never returned to military hands, he died as a civilian and therefore - no CWGC listing.

[PhilB]

Thanks, Terry - it`s what I expected. Would he forfeit any medal entitlement and not appear in NA?

[Terry Denham]

I am no medal expert but I suspect the medals would be forfeit.

Men who were executed by civil court usually are not commemorated by CWGC because (1) They were deserters as explained above or (2) were discharged from the forces before execution took place.

However, if a deserter was recaptured by the military and then died, he would qualify for CWGC commemoration as he was back in the forces.

Anyone who was simply AWOL was deemed not to have left the forces permanently and would qualify for commemoration if they died whilst still AWOL.

[PhilB]

When does an AWOL become a deserter?

[John_Hartley]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 30 2007, 03:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When does an AWOL become a deserter?

When intent not to return is established/suggested.

John

[Terry Denham]

It is an official military classification. There will be an exact process to move one from t'other.

Military law specialist required.

[Pete1052]

If I recall correctly, in the U.S. it is the expiration of a certain amount of time--30 days, 60 days, 90 days, or something like that--from the time the man first went AWOL to when he is officially declared a deserter.

[truthergw]

Mr Hartley is correct. It is for the court to establish that there was intention not to return, this then made the offence desertion. If no such intention could be proved, the offence was being absence without leave.

[PhilB]

Do you mean a civil court? Presumably, then, it would be at the man`s unit`s discretion as to when they referred the case to a court, so he`d be AWOL till his unit decided otherwise in effect?

[johnreed]

Kings Regulations Para 514. Army 1912

As soon as its known that a soldier has absented himself without leave, his equipment, clothing, and regimental necessaries will at once be placed in safe custody, and an inventory of these articles will be taken as soon as practicable.

A C.O. at home or abroad is to transmit to the editor of the Police Gazette, New Scotland Yard, London, SW., a descriptive report, on A.F.B. 124, of every deserter or absentee without leave, giving particulars of the man's height, age etc, at the time of absenting himself, and the fullest information possible, in order that the same can be inserted in the Police Gazette, which paper is sent to the headquarters of every regiment, battalion and depot at home. When there is good ground for supposing an absentee to have deserted, the report should be rendered within 24 hours after his absence has been discovered, but in no case should it be delayed beyond 5 days. Up to 21 days the man should not be returned as a deserter, unless there is ground for supposing that he has deserted. After 21 days, every absentee without leave should, pending investigation, be considered as a deserter. In the case of a recruit who absconds en routeto join, a note should be made of this fact on the report.

John

[PhilB]

After 21 days, every absentee without leave should, pending investigation, be considered as a deserter.

John

Does that make him officially a deserter (no medal entitlement) or still AWOL/suspect deserter (and still entitled)?

[auchonvillerssomme]

I started a thread on these men a while back

Mick

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=jewellers+shop

[John_Hartley]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 30 2007, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does that make him officially a deserter (no medal entitlement) or still AWOL/suspect deserter (and still entitled)?

Still an untried and unconvicted suspect. Even military justice requires some form of due process.

John

[Northern Soul]

I have an interest in this subject - Private Thomas Clinton, of the Manchester Regiment, shot Sergeant Major Henry Lynch at Barrow-in-Furness in January, 1917. He was executed at Strangeways in March. I suspect he was never discharged from the Army before his execution and consequently is probably entitled to commemoration by the CWGC - on the Brookwood Memorial, seeing as how he is buried within the walls of Strangeways in an unmarked grave.

Its a tricky issue: do you pursue commemoration for such individuals (because, if they weren't formally discharged then the law says they are entitled to be commemorated, irrespective of what they have done) or is it just best to leave it alone? From reading the newspaper reports it's patently obvious that Thomas Clinton had been extensively bullied by Henry Lynch and was almost certainly acting under diminshed responsibility and there is scope for a reappraisal of his case/ pardon............but it wouldn't bring him back. My feeling is that at the time it was a grevious wrong - but it's now history.

Contrast that with the calculating-murderers etc. who would fall into the same category - deserving of commemoration because there was an administrative mix-up. It's hard to know where to draw the line and I don't pretend to know the answer, although there are one or two unsavoury criminal characters who are commemorated by the CWGC, so perhaps a precedent has already been set.

Andy.

[Pete1052]

I found the following explanation for how the U.S. Uniform Code of Military Justice distinguishes between the two offenses. The UCMJ dates from about 1952.

The offense of Desertion, under Article 85, carries a much greater punishment, than the offense of AWOL, under Article 86. Many people believe that if one is absent without authority for greater than 30 days, the offense changes from AWOL to Desertion, but that's not quite true.

The primary difference between the two offenses is "intent to remain away permanently." If one intends to return to "military control," one is guilty of "AWOL," under Article 86, not Desertion, under Article 85, even if they were away for ten years. The confusion derives from the fact that, if a member is absent without authority for longer than 30 days, the government (court-martial) is allowed to assume there was no intent to return. Therefore, the burden of proof that the accused intended to someday return to "military control" lies with the defense.

A person who is absent for just a day or two, then apprehended, could still be charged with the offense of Desertion, but the prosecution would have to show evidence that the accused intended to remain away permanently.

[Gunner Bailey]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 30 2007, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We all know the number of SADs during the war but few know the comparable civil figures for hangings in UK including Ireland. During the war years, they were:-

1914 from Aug 1st - 6; 1915 - 10; 1916 - 9; 1917 - 10; 1918 to Nov 11 - 5. Total 40.

It would be interesting to compare these figures from the war period to those years before and after the war. The questions being :- did having all the young fit men in uniform reduce the crime rate for serious crime, and was the country more law abiding during a sustained period of national emergency?

Gunner Bailey

[John_Hartley]

GB

The figures (for England & Wales) are potentially interesting as they show a clear reduction in executions during the war period. However, then as now, many murders are committed by men against women (usually wives/partners/girlfriends). The fact that many men were away from their women means the opportunity to murder them is inherently decreased.

1909 - 19

1910 - 16

1911 - 16

1912 - 10

1913 - 19

1914 - 14

1915 - 9

1916 - 8

1917 - 9

1918 - 7

1919 - 12

1920 - 21

1921 - 8

1922 - 17

1923 - 14

If we look at, say, 1912 then we'd see that in 8 of the 10 cases the victims were WAGs. Pretty much the same proportion - 7 from 9 - apply in 1915.

As a more general issue, my reading of the local newspapers of the time doesnt seem to indicate any particular change in criminality - other, of course, as before that most criminal acts (of all sorts) are committed by younger men and they simply weren't around to commit them. I'd take the view that it isnt the fact they were in uniform that was the issue, but that they were in France.

John

[Terry Denham]

Andy

All qualifying men should be commemorated.

I have a couple of murderers in hand with CWGC at the moment. CWGC's Charter makes no differentiation between category of death. There is no discretion allowed. All must be commemorated.

[Gunner Bailey]

John

Many thanks for listing those figures. I think your last sentence probably sums up the situation. Edwardian and Victorian societies were more violent than most people imagine with as much street crime as today - if not more so, and the gap between rich and poor much wider than now. Hence the widespread carrying of revolvers by the middle and upper classes, an activity clamped down on in the 1920's, probably due to soldiers bringing even more pistols back from France after the war.

Interesting thread!

Gunner Bailey

[Gunner Bailey]

John

Another question. In WW2 a number of German spies were hanged after being caught. Were there similar executions in WW1, and were they excluded from the figures you list? Are these just 'civil' executions?

Gunner Bailey

[Terry Denham]

There were eleven German spies executed in the Tower of London during WW1.

These are regarded as civil deaths by the authorities.

[PhilB]

. However, then as now, many murders are committed by men against women (usually wives/partners/girlfriends).

John

I particularly noticed that the majority seemed to have had their throats cut, often by open razors.

Another thought about referring AWOLs to civil courts for elevation to deserter status - what happened in theatres abroad like Salonika, East Africa etc? I believe even Gallipoli had deserters.

[ralphjd]

I have an interest in this subject - ... snip ... already been set.

Andy.

Andy. He is not now buried within the walls of Strangeways nick, after the riot all the burial sites were dug up and any still living relatives of the deceased were contacted and asked if they wanted to arrange for the reburial of the remains or to leave it up to the Prison Service.(I have no idea how many responded as my work colleague at the time was sworn to secrecy and would not tell me).The remains were taken for cremation and reinterred in a location (I suspect it was either Southern Cemetery or Blackley Cemetery Manchester) known only to a few people, one of whom was the Chaplain of the prison at the time, he performed the reburial service. The graves in the grounds were unmarked but the location of each burial was recorded in the Works Dept who had responsibility for preparing the various burial sites, generally located in the gardens inside the perimeter wall. Each body was covered in lime to help rapid decomposition but the ground Manchester Prison (to give it its now correct title) is built on -- clay-- effectively preserved the remains as water could not get through to the lime to make it react. I think a total of about 120+ were reinterred. Ralph.(Strangeways Manchester 1965-2003 NOT as a prisoner I might add).

[centurion]

Does seem a little odd that soldier A. could be discharged in say 1916 on medical grounds (say loss of leg) and dies in 1918 as a result of long term complications from other wounds and not, presumably, fall under CWG's remit whilst soldier B could go AWOL, murder someone and get hanged for it in the same year and he does come under CWG. Funny old world.