Query: British Units at Verdun C1915-16

[Pegasuss]

One of My Grandfathers elder Brothers saw action at Verdun (C1816), I would like to know Which Unit/Reg He served In!

All I have, is His Name, Occupation, & the wording of a Letter/Telegram He sent to His Wife back in Liverpool!

Name: Henry Charles HURST Bn C1881, Liverpool (Wife: Florence Kate, nee' HOLT)

In His letter to His Wife (written from somewhere in Verdun early-1916 after He had recieved a letter from Her telling of the Birth of their Daughter), he said:

"How is My darling Daughter 'Frances Verdun'....."

(It got Past the Censors)

Florence did'nt understand His 'Coded message', and had their Daughter Christened 'Frances Verdun' (I read the Letter/Telegram @15-20Yrs ago (when I was discussing Family History with Frances)!

Hope this all makes Sense, & someone can Help!

P.S.

Henrys Surname (at Birth) was HERTZBERGER, His Father Peter was Bn 1857, Manchester to Carl & Dorothea HERTZBERGER (who emmigrated from Prussea C1848-50).

[bob lembke]

"Pegasuss";

I have read many thousands of pages of sources, mostly memoirs and official histories, mostly in German and French, about the fighting in on the Verdun sector in 1916, and have never heard of a British unit in the Verdun sector in that time period (or any other). Perhaps he was corresponding in code as he was in a German unit!

There may have been some Brit liason mission, or possibly some sort of support unit, but I doubt the latter.

Do you have any other information? Perhaps the Brit-oriented Pals can sort out his service record. It would have been easier if he had retained his original family name.

Bob Lembke

[Pegasuss]

Bob.

It would have been easier if he had retained his original family name.

H.C, & His Brothers all Volunteered (in Liverpool) @1914-1915, they all changed their Surname to HURST (for Obvious Reasons) on Registration/Enlisting! (one of them was in a Cavalry or Horse Artillary Reg, not looked into this [Yet!])

P.S.

His Father (My Grt-Grandfather) Died on 17th June 1916 in a room above His Shop in Liverpool(whilst Bricks were being Thrown though the Shop Windows by an Anti-German Mob). His Widow refused all family entreaties to Change Her Surname after He Died, and Lived for many Years as Mrs Mary HERTZBERGER (till Her death in 1936).

I wish I had paid more attention to the writting on the Letter (maybe it contained His Reg, Unit, or Reg Number?), I have been trying to make contact with Frances's Son (through Genesreunited, but He has'nt as yet replied to My messages).

I Live in Hope!

Peter

aka Pegasuss

[ian turner]

Peter,

Guess the only way you might uncover what Henry was doing would be to see his serivce record, if it still exists (see the Long Long Trail, linked at the top of the page).

Think the only way he might have been near Verdun would be liason with the French forces.

Do you have his medals? They will have name/rank/regiment and number on the rim, so could help you narrow down which Henry Hurst's' records you seek.

Ian

[truthergw]

Hi Peter. I have read a bit about Verdun and am not aware of any British unit serving there. There may well have been liason officers but these would have been officers . As far as I am aware, their drivers and cars were provided by the French. The simplest solution to your problem is that it was not code. He had received a letter telling him of the birth of a daughter who had been christened with the name Verdun. Plenty of babies had exactly that, done to them. There is a current thread on this subject.

[Pegasuss]

Ian & Tom.

Thank You for trying to Help Me!

a couple of things I need to add:

1. I think (know) it is likely that H.C. enlisted as 'Charles HURST' (listed as such on later childrens Birth Records).

2. I don't have any Medals or Etc, The person who would have them is the Cousin that I am waiting to reply to my messages on genes.

In the back of my mind, I seem to remember hearing/reading about some Commonwealth Regt's (Indian &/or NZ'ers) that were sent to Verdun, could He have possible been attached to one of them?

Sorry If I seem a bit Lost Here (that the way this chap is making Me Feel!)

P.S.

Frances Verduns Birth was registered in June Qtr 1916!

[truthergw]

Ian & Tom.

In the back of my mind, I seem to remember hearing/reading about some Commonwealth Regt's (Indian &/or NZ'ers) that were sent to Verdun, could He have possible been attached to one of them?

Sorry If I seem a bit Lost Here (that the way this chap is making Me Feel!)

No need to be sorry, most of us quite enjoy showing off

I have to repeat that as far as I am aware, from reading French, German and English sources, only French and German forces were involved at Verdun. The British, which includes Empire troops, were building up for the Somme. and helped the French by taking up more of the line than was originally planned. The nearest Empire troops were on the west bank of the Somme. The only battlefield which was, as it were shared by British and French, was Chemin des Dames along the R. Aisne, but not at this time( 1914 and 1918) and still many miles from Verdun.

[Pegasuss]

Tom.

Your reply Is Clearing the Fog a little!

I think (as you suggest) I need to concentrate on 'the west bank of the Somme'!

Now, (I need Educating) what is the best source for finding out Who was positioned on the west bank of the Somme?

[bob lembke]

Peter;

To underline what Tom said, there is no chance that it was Verdun or anywhere about there. In the entire war, the only forces that fought there was the French and Germans, and some American units that swept thru the area in the closing months of the war. No Brit, UK, Empire, rtc. troops ever.

Getting a peek at the edges of the medals is the thing to pursue now.

Bob Lembke

[Pegasuss]

Bob & Tom.

After browsing through the Virtual Tour on the Long Long Trail, I had another question come to mind:

Could H.C. have been in the 32nd or 34th at the Somme, I need to study more on their Movements!

Once again, Thank You chaps, I would never have thought of this If it had'nt been for Your Input!

(I think I should consider Re-Naming this Thread)

[truthergw]

Bob & Tom.

After browsing through the Virtual Tour on the Long Long Trail, I had another question come to mind:

Could H.C. have been in the 32nd or 34th at the Somme, I need to study more on their Movements!

Once again, Thank You chaps, I would never have thought of this If it had'nt been for Your Input!

(I think I should consider Re-Naming this Thread)

I think you might be better to concentrate on the medals or other personal clues. You need to fix him into a unit and once you have done that, take it from there. It would be easy to give you a day by day list of which regiment was where on any day of the battle of the Somme. but that would prove nothing if you don't know which one he was in.

[gnr.ktrha]

Hello,

I thought someone my find this of interest. John Laffin wrote a book called Battlefield Archaeology. On page 21 there is a photo of him working in a shell hole on Le mort homme. He describes how he found a British Bayonet, which was complete except for the wooden parts. He could find no reason for it being there.

I wonder if it belonged to Pegasuss's relative It does make you wonder a bit, though. However it does seem more likely that it was a tophy picked up further north by possibly a german who came to fight at Verdun. or something similar.

Regards,

Stewart

[truthergw]

Hello,

I thought someone my find this of interest. John Laffin wrote a book called Battlefield Archaeology. On page 21 there is a photo of him working in a shell hole on Le mort homme. He describes how he found a British Bayonet, which was complete except for the wooden parts. He could find no reason for it being there.

I wonder if it belonged to Pegasuss's relative It does make you wonder a bit, though. However it does seem more likely that it was a tophy picked up further north by possibly a german who came to fight at Verdun. or something similar.

Regards,

Stewart

Hi Stewart, I have read too much to ever say never, but if there was a British unit at Verdun then let me just say that the fact is very under reported. John Laffin you say, are you sure it wasn't a butcher's knife he found?

[gnr.ktrha]

A butchers knife, no, he might hurt himself!

I'm sure someone would have said if there had been a British unit there. It seems very unlikely. I think, as I mentioned, that the bayonet must have got there by other means ie, picked up by troops fighting elsewhere, that ended up fighting at Verdun and then lost it in that battle.

One thought, we are bound to have had a small group of officers attached to the French Army, like the fellow Spears. If we did, then they are bound to have taken along there own batmen, drivers etc.

Regards,

Stewart

If I come across any more red herrings, I will just throw them back

[Pegasuss]

Thank You Gentlemen!

I have been trying to find some records for West bank of the Somme (prior to the Battle, @april1916), so that I can find out which Lancashire Regiments (if any) were posted there! (to narrow down My search for H.Cs Enlistment)!

The only thing I found any Info on was on 'The Long, Long Trail' site, but it did'nt include the Info I am searching for!

Does anyone have the Muster List for this area for April 1916?

[ian turner]

Peter,

Not to dampen enthusiasm, nor your gathering of WW1 knowledge, but first things first!

You need to know which regiment and battalion your man was in. He may have been nowehere near the Somme....

Get you cousin to check the army number and regiment on the medals. Then you can check the medal rolls at Kew to see what battalion he was with. (Even then, it might not have been the battalion in which he saw active service).

You can also try for his service record if it has survived the Blitz (only 30 pct chance).

Then you can concentrate on where he might have been.

You might like to trawl through local newspaper archives in case he appeared in write-ups about local servicemen.

If you get excited about placings of units on the Somme, you may be chasing down entirely the wrong path. Nothing wrong in discovering the histories for its own sake, but an awful disappointment if after months of research on derring-do on the Somme he turns up to have been in a back area peeling spuds!

You may have success in uncovering a full history of him, but best to keep feet on the ground (or keep the possibilities in mind at least).

Good hunting.

Ian

[James Blonde]

. . . and some American units that swept thru the area in the closing months of the war. . . .

Hallo a little off topic,

I believe the American imput near Verdun was more than a "sweep", with 4,152 US Graves alone located in the American Cemetery at Thaiucourt , and 14,246 graves at the cemeteries of "Romagne sous Montfaucon"

(including the monument to the Honour of the Soldiers of Pensylvania.)

"Shortly after the American entry into the war, General Pershing proposed the establishment of an American Army in the vicinity of St. Mihiel with the intention of reducing the triangular salient extending to St.Mihiel from Verdun in the North and Pont-a-Mousson in the east.

The formation of the army was however delayed by the deployment of the American Units to assist the French and the British in meeting a series of German drives in the spring of 1918.

With an improving situation following the Aisne-Marne counteroffensive and Pershings insistence that the American divisions should fight in the future only as part as an independant American Army, it became possible during early August to Marshal the American First Army in preperation for the delayed offensive.

When the offensive was launched in the early morning hours of 12 September, the American First Army consisted of the Amwrican I, IV, and V Corps and the French II Colonial Corps.

The main drive of the offensive was delivered by the American I and IV Corps against the Southern face of the salient, while the American V Corps conducted secondary attacks at the Western face. The French II Colonial Corps supported the left of the main assault and the right of the secondary attack while holding the Germans in around the area of St. Mihiel.

As the intial attacks progressed, it became apparant that the Germans were withdrawing before the French II Colonial Corps; and therefore General Pershing, early in the evening of the 12th ordered the IV and V Corps to join at all speed in the vicinity of Vigneulles in order to cut off the retiring German units. By 16th September, the entire Salient had been rediced to a new German Defensive line roughly stretching from Haudiomont to Pont-a-Mousson. More than 550,000 American and about 110,000 French troops were involved in the offensive which was the first operation of the War carried out by an American Army and under the control of an American Commander-in-Chief.

With regards a British Bayonet being found in Verdun, it could have been dropped by a visitor to the area immediately post WW1.

Connaught Stranger.

[truthergw]

One thought, we are bound to have had a small group of officers attached to the French Army, like the fellow Spears.

Stewart

You would think so wouldn't you. As far as I can find, the amount of battlefield liason was startlingly little. Edmunds operated alone between HQs at a fairly high level. Paul Maze, again on his own, at army level. Since there were, I am fairly sure, no British troops involved at Verdun, there would be no requirement for liason officers there. There is no evidence of British troops carrying sidearms accompanying liason officers. There may have been an observer at Corps or army HQ. I doubt if he would have dropped a bayonet on Le Mort Homme.

[bob lembke]

I have not read what John Laffin wrote about this "British bayonet", and I am by no means a bayonet collector, or any sort of authority on them, but I do know that there is a great body of materiel known as Ersatz bayonets, which I take to mean non-standard bayonet types. I believe a good deal of German arms production of simpler weapons (including "potato masher" grenades, without the explosive filling) was performed on a very small scale, perhaps in some cases actually on the kitchen table, so to speak, in cottage industry. In some parts of Germany there was a tradition of farmers who also had one economic foot in industry; for example, Henry Ford was greatly impressed by the Schwabian peasant/industrial workers, and supposedly traveled to Germany to observe their economic participation. I go over the Internet offerings of a leading German dealer in military PCs, and it seems that every second or third bayonet is described as an "Ersatz bayonet" ("Ersatz" means, among other things, "replacement")

So if a bayonet was in the earth long enough for the wooden parts to disappear, it probably was corroded enough to mask its precise origin, and may have simply resembled a British bayonet.

Additionally, whole German units were equipped with captured enemy weapons; I have heard of units armed with Russian rifles. Possibly some unit was equipped with British rifles and bayonets taken in the fighting in 1914. Or possibly British bayonets were re-worked to mount on other rifles, or perhaps some English blades from somewhere were incorporated into Ersatz bayonets. While these various possibilities are individually remote, they are much more likely than a British unit in the area, whose probability was zero.

I have two interesting souviners from Le Mort Homme. One is a piece of my father's left upper arm bone, knocked out by a splinter from a French 75 on Mort Homme on 28. 12. 16. He was also given the shell splinter after surgery, but a nurse tidied up his bedside table while he slept and threw it away. The second, recently acquired, is a photo of a German officer that my father saved a few minutes before my father was wounded. (Another French 75 splinter had cut his right hand off.) I have a photo of this officer standing with several fellow officers in 1918, hiding his empty sleeve behind his back, probably to not to give spouses and girlfriends receiving the photo the "willies". This incident was written up both in two published accounts by the officer, and in several letters from my father in hospital, and the accounts tally nicely.

Bob Lembke

[Pegasuss]

Ian.

I take on board everything you suggest! (as I [still] don't have access to H.C's Medals my first thought was to try and find His Medal Card &/or Service record).

All the knowledge I am gaining is giving Me a far better Picture of what happened in the War! (Worth the effort on it's Own!).

------------------------------------------------------

Connaught Stranger, Truthergw & Bob.

Thank You all for Your Invaluable Input, some of these facts I have never heard before (doubt If much is Public Knowledge!).

Keep it coming, I'm like a Sponge! (Can Always absorb More!)

[gnr.ktrha]

I knew it was a mistake to mention the bayonet! Ha Ha. It has just confused things. There could be any number of reasons for it being there, but i'm sure the fellow who found it knew enough about them to judge if it was British or not.

The reason I mentioned Officers with batmen was because it would have given a reason for a British ranker being in that area, without there having to be a British unit present, and therefore be a reason for it being a little known fact. But as pointed out, there does not seem to be much in the way of evidence to suggest that there were any in that area. Once again the bayonet got in the way, I was not suggesting a batman had dropped it.

It is a strange one.

Stewart

[Pegasuss]

Stewart.

'Strange' Indeed!

We could keep on trying to Guess 'It's Story' for Years! (If only It could Talk?)

[truthergw]

I knew it was a mistake to mention the bayonet! Ha Ha. It has just confused things.It is a strange one.

Stewart

My best guess is that a revisionist author threw it at Laffin but missed.

[TD60]

Just an additional remark

Some british or canadians came later in 1916.

General Currie went and stay there to learn from the experience of the french tactics in Verdun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Currie

He did a quite famous report good and bad experiences of the french soldiers to prepare the attack on vimy ridge.

we can suppose he was not alone; but with other officiers qnd soldiers.

details below from

http://www.legionmagazine.com/features/special/07-03a.asp

Every commander wrestled with that question, but some of the answers came from the 1st Canadian Division's practical, analytical, and open-minded commander, Major-General Arthur Currie. Sent by Byng to study how the French had fought at Verdun in December 1916, Currie's report pointed to good reconnaissance as the key, along with efforts put into familiarizing every soldier with the objectives sought and then practising each man's role. Maps and photographs went down to platoon level, and each of the poilus (a widely used term of endearment for the French infantry) could operate every infantry weapon--and those belonging to the Germans as well. The French relied on fire and movement, with infantry consolidating on captured positions and fresh troops, moving in rushes and leading the assault forward, employing machine-gun fire and grenades to keep the enemy's heads down.

Many British officers had drawn similar conclusions from their ally's tactics, but it is fair to say that Byng implemented them with greater vigour than most. His Canadian Corps reorganized, its companies now made up of four platoons, each of four sections, and each employing fire and movement. Officers stressed individual initiative, and platoons became more self-reliant, a policy that brought specialists, like Lewis gunners, bombers and rifle grenadiers, back into the platoon and made it capable of integrated action.

But throughout the British Expeditionary Force, of which the Canadian Corps formed part, the rifle and bayonet remained the key. Johnny Canuck temperamentally might have had more innate flexibility than the Tommy (informal for a British private soldier), but the template for attack that each used was very simillar. What was different, as Brigadier-General William Griesbach of the 1st Brigade was wont to say, was that the Canadian Corps was well-trained, well-led, and driven by a commitment to learning.

Currie's findings reached every man. One soldier wrote to his brother a few days after the Vimy battle, stating that "we were organized for the attack on the new French system."

[truthergw]

The Wiki article implies that Currie invented the creeping barrage at Vimy. I'd like to see a bit of the evidence for that. I notice that he went to Verdun in December '16. I thought it was all over by then. Presumably he consulted with Mangin, Petain et al as to their tactics.